Not hating on open source, just let people use what fits their expectations and needs and stop deterring them with gatekeeping :P
UX = user experience
I just wish people would stop making software choice their whole personality
I use Arch Linux btw
I use Microsoft Windows, because I like a challenge 😎
F
Well windows is my primary work computer , since its office provided , however setting up things is so hard on windows , installing packages and all ! Although since recently chocolatey package manager has been good !
Perfect response.
same
Linux Mint user, I hope that’s not a problem
Apparently that’s the only thing a lot of Lemmy users do
Most people don’t even think about software, they will happily use whatever came on their device by default. The next time you buy a new phone or laptop and it is crammed full of trash software it is because people DO NOT think about software choices at all.
Same tbh this weird hive mind mentality thing I was happy to leave behind on reddit only to come to pretty much the same thing with a different coat of paint.
It’s important, especially in the early days of Lemmy that we set good groundwork for the infrastructure we’re going to use for the next 10 years or so.
By it’s nature, it certainly seems like there will be a wide variety of apps for accessing Lemmy.
I’m far more concerned about if Lemmy will be a thing for the next 5…let alone 10 years, than making sure everyone decides on the app I feel is the right one.
This one dude has made this app for years and constantly updates it, fixes things, is responsive, and makes a great app. He’s now been more loyal to his users longer than Reddit has, and I personally have used his app daily for 13 years.
Yeah, I’ll happily pay for it.
FOSS is great but it doesn’t pay the rent people, this guy is doing this mostly as his main gig. This isn’t some huge corpo, it’s one guy who makes his living building the app he loves. I’m sure he’d love to make it FOSS if he didn’t have to pay bills on anything.
FOSS can pay the rent. But the users that will complain about £20 for a lifetime of ad removal, definitely aren’t going to be the ones that help him should the bank come calling about late mortgage payments.
This is the same crap I left /r/Linux for way back in the day, so so so many people who are all “Linux is the best way and you’re stupid for even considering windows or mac” but unable to see realities. Yes, of course I love linux and FOSS, I use it as my primary driver, but we live in a society where free work doesn’t pay for housing.
You’re exactly right, most of the “FOSS Open Source supreme” people will look at an app that was lovingly crafted for months, call it garbage, and then demand they make it free. I just can’t even with them.
Meanwhile I’d love to see the stats on how many hours a week they put into FOSS apps on their own, and if they’ve given up their jobs to code for FOSS apps for the good of the community.
I’m a developer. I code mostly proprietary stuff for my company. I’d gladly go code for FOSS projects, but so far my bank is just completely unwilling to cancel my mortgage payments, and my electricity, water, sewer, internet, they all want to be paid too, so unfortunately I’m stuck doing this.
Seriously, I honestly feel like this is a bad look for Lemmy right now. Like who cares how people enjoy Lemmy? Also, why do people care so much about how others spend their money?
Some of these people don’t even realize they are using a closed source app (connect) and have no problem with it, but when price is introduced all of a sudden people are up in arms.
Don’t like the price? Continue to use Sync(with ads) or use the other plethora of FOSS alternatives.
“Free and Open Source Software Open Source supreme”?
It’s either a pizza or a Taco Bell menu item
These are the people that read Marx and then have a whole new world view, but they forget to take reality into account
I think the issue a lot of folks have is people like yourself always connecting it back to profit/salary. A large portion of us are interested in Linux/technology/foss for personal reasons and this corporate stuff not only reeks but makes enough noise to drown out better long term solutions. Yes I do it professionally too and yes I fight the good fight but we do what we need to do, this dude does not need to do this. UX really just isn’t important when we’re talking about expanding human capabilities, or I should say UX is important but pretty things aren’t. My opinion anyway but I was raised to care about this stuff by one of those wizard beards so to see your attitude is prevalent just sucks, no disrespect and nothing personal.
I’m all for FOSS (currently working at a company that contributes heavily to FOSS) and am a huge supporter/contributor of FOSS, but the level of entitlement and superiority complex that I’ve seen from many in the FOSS community (including yours) is highly unappealing, and at times frankly revolting. That’s what truly reeks and stains FOSS.
There’s an expression I think about a lot, “You can’t think when you’re hungry”
Unfortunately principles and ideals are calorie-free
Took me a minute to process, but that is a powerful one. I’m going to borrow that. Thanks for sharing lol
Entitlement? They’ve taken everything from us, not just software either, have some empathy. All proprietary solutions will die, we have a right to build for the future and we have a right to educate about it.
I have no qualms about building for the future and educating. I fully support that. What I don’t support is the brigading and the lambasting of users who choose to purchase closed or proprietary products. That is their right as much as it is yours to advocate for FOSS.
If “taking everything from us” is the issue, there are appropriate channels and mechanisms to defend against that. If you don’t want your FOSS software to be used in a priority setting, apply the correct licensing models and pursue legal paths. GPL-licensed FOSS is generally and effectively avoided by for-profit organizations. If you purposefully choose MPL or Apache for your license models, that’s really your responsibility for legally protecting your FOSS IP. Apply the right licensing model, it is literally a single button to change it if your source is on GitHub.
That’s fine as your opinion, but it’s not a popular one. Many people tried lemmy and left almost immediately because they want a better UI. We come from the old usenet boards so we know what UI was like back then, but now people expect a great UI/UX to use a service. So yes, I understand the principals, but we shouldn’t demonize people who pay money for a better experience, and if you’re a developer I’m sure you know that a good UX costs some money, but a great UX costs a lot of money.
There’s also a lot of younger techies on the board cause if you even got remotely deep enough you’d have to learn how to use those user board websites to solve your extremely specific problems.
Lemmy doesn’t have ads. If you have to pay to remove them don’t you think something is wrong with that? Why not pay for the community and useful features instead?
You’re not paying to remove ads from Lemmy. You can continue using Lemmy ad-free on mobile via the mobile site or any of the other PWA’s or native apps. What you’re paying to remove ads from is Sync. The developer has decided that they need to be compensated to sustain the amount of effort developing and maintaining the app requires. If you don’t want to pay that price with cash or your eyeballs then don’t use it.
Nobody is forcing you to use Sync, nobody is forcing you to see ads. The beauty of a platform like Lemmy is you have the choice to use whatever client you want. That doesn’t mean you’re entitled to any of them.
The ads finance the app, I think that’s perfectly fine (in principle).
I asked the dev a few weeks ago, this app is literally his livelihood. And he has a pretty good track record of delivering good software. Why not support him?
If you think more ads is the solution that’s good for you. Ads are society’s cancer, so I have little choice other than to block it. (Paying to get rid of ads perpetuates the idea that ads are profitable. That’s up to you.)
So the three options for him to keep developing that we know of are 1) Ads 2) Pay for a license or 3) Fundraising. He offers 1 and 2, and 3 is well known to not work, seriously nobody donates. Check out
npm fundand how so little people used it that they just removed it.If your only argument is “I deserve things that took a lot of time and effort for free” then you aren’t getting much sympathy from me.
If your only argument is “I deserve things that took a lot of time and effort for free” then you aren’t getting much sympathy from me.
Well, the user is posting from the piracy instance
ha
Check out npm fund
Instructions unclear, I ran the command and now I have a shitcoin called Bitcoin Cash.
Off topic, but I just have to ask… is your name a reference to the IBM database technology? Lol
Nope, because I don’t have an issue with paying for something that I like and enjoy. Don’t like to pay? Nobody is forcing you to. Stop lambasting others for their choice.
So for one he’s adding an option to fund your instance as well, but also just because it’s an app doesn’t mean that it also doesn’t require money.
Your argument doesn’t come off as “so both should be free” but to me more like “oh yeah I’m surprised Lemmy doesn’t have an ad option”
Where did you read that he was adding something to fund instances?
I’ve been on open source since the early 90s. I know damn well how people make money off of it and who makes money off of it.
I support none of it if it starts including tracking and ads. It goes against the whole mindset. Google fanboys love it though.
That’s why there is an option to disable ads… Everyone wins unless they think this person’s work should be distributed for free.
Then pay to remove the ads. Someone has to pay at some point and it’s either you or the guy already spending his time to make the app.
How do you think OSS has been funded since the early 90s?
Upvoted via Sync lol. FOSS is great, FOSS is irreplaceable, but for independent programmers FOSS doesn’t pay the rent.
FOSS doesn’t mean your product/service/app is free to use
You can make it FOSS and still have some sort of subscription for syncing between devices for example. Tasks.org did it like that.
Not to mention that you can run something on donations like lichess or F-Droid and have some extra money.
NPM did donations too and found that <0.01% of users paid anything, and the average for even the most used packages made on average $40 a month. That doesn’t pay a full time fry cook, let alone developer
I remember this being a problem on GitHub where developers would full on attack NPM packages that requested funding or donations in the installer.
Core-js had a really rough ride with that one, and babel (one of their main users) could not spare any development time to work on it, in the absence of the single maintainer.
It’s kind of disappointing in FOSS circles how some just refuse to acknowledge that devs need to eat - not everyone codes open source software as a side/passion project in spare time.
Yup, I remember the core-js debacle, one dude literally supporting the entirety of the internet, tried everything he could just to get some funding from literally anyone, that was the 40 dollar mark I got, he got 40 dollars to maintain core-js. I’m sure even Lemmy here uses it.
He would receive threats on his github on this project he started for fun saying there were bugs, or they needed features, and he said he even received death threats for just asking for funding. Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, and Google all use core-js but none of them gave him anything for using it anywhere. He even asked them all if he could just come work for them and maintain corejs since they all use it so heavily, none of them responded. So he just gave up, and said basically screw everyone, no one wants to support me, my family has sacrificed too much for this project that no one wants to pay for, and he got a real job and stopped updating core-js.
It’s a sad story. Everyone here loves to praise FOSS, and if we lived in the Federation we’d be able to support FOSS simply by using it, but if you’re using it and not supporting the developers then you’re not truly a FOSS supporter. I’m really honestly ashamed with how people here have acted in this thread, principals are great but so few are willing to put their money where their mouth is. The donation button for Lemmy devs is right at the top, how many people in this thread have even clicked on it, let alone donated?
I am currently using Sync, and while I agree that the UX is better I can also understand why so many on the Fediverse are against similar apps. They are here because corporations have ruined every other good thing on the internet and non-FOSS is very much associated with big corporations. While I would prefer that Sync were FOSS I also see the reality of Western society and how untenable creating an app would be without some kind of ad revenue. A majority of people are notoriously stingy and donations can only get you so far.
Also, Sync is one dev working full time by himself, not a big corp.
Reddit was two guys, YouTube was a small group of friends. Things grow fast, especially with a subscription price as high as Sync.
Sync has been a one man show for over a decade. Just how fast did you have in mind?
He also has always asked and worked with his community for what they want. I’ve been on Sync since 2014 and have nothing tying me to it, but the fact when I had issues he responded personally and got it fixed, really made an impression. I remember back when he took a break for a couple years to work on his degree, he came back swinging hard on this project.
I’ll gladly leave the app if it ever doesn’t have my interests in mind. However that time has not yet arrived.
These people aren’t arguing in good faith. They’re just stretching for any strawman they can to justify the fact that they don’t want to spend money or see ads. In other words “Do a bunch of work for me to benefit from for free”.
Sync has been good to me for the better part of a decade and after a little while on the free app I will most likely end up paying. He has earned it.
Reddit was two originally, but they had to bring in Aaron Swartz to get it working correctly. He was working on his own similar thing at the time, and was able to insert his code into their idea.
Then he did the typical Aaron Swartz thing, and got bored moved on to his next shiny project and got ousted for failure to do his job.
No shade to anyone who uses Sync, but the egregious thing to me is the price. Sync isn’t making the content, just like Reddit wasn’t, and they’re setting the price at a level that it feels like that’s what you’re paying for.
Any comparison to other software makes this pretty clear. If it were $4.99, I’d say that’s relatively fair, but charging 1/3rd of the cost of a new video game for an app that took less than 1/3rd of the resources to produce seems a bit absurd.
People can spend their money however they want, but I also don’t think it’s completely uncalled for to criticize the company for what appears to be price gouging.
The one time payment to remove ads is 20$.
People are really overblowing the price. As other ppl have mentioned, lemmy is less than a fraction of the user base of reddit.
The 4x price increase isn’t crazy. Devs need to make a living. I talk to Lj every now and then on Discord. Dude has been scrambling since the Reddit shut down to get out a working product. I really don’t think it’s price gouging to spend 20$ for an app I’ll be using for maybe 30-mins to an hour almost every single day.
There is the ad revenue too though. If it is impossible to make a living and work on these apps with either reasonable app pricing or no ads, then why is Sync the only app for Lemmy with these strings attached?
I just don’t understand what makes Sync significantly different or more expensive to produce than every other app available right now.
Bro it’s just a great fucking app, specifically for the design and user experience.
Also I (very loosely) know Lj and want to support his work.
You absolutely do not need to use Sync! Enjoy Lemmy through your app of choice!!
To be totally clear, I really am not intending to throw any shade towards users of the app. My opinion about the price is not a judgment on the users.
I am glad to hear that it at least provides a premium experience. I just hope ads and expensive apps aren’t going to be the future of accessing Lemmy.
If it is impossible to make a living and work on these apps with either reasonable app pricing or no ads, then why is Sync the only app for Lemmy with these strings attached?
Sync is a “professional” app. The others are mostly hobbyists. That’s the ultimate difference. Same as with Apollo. You had a bunch of open source reddit clients, but a hobby piece of software will seldom outshine a professional product. Sometimes it happens, but that’s the exception not the norm. Sync has been incredibly stable for me over the last day. Memmy on my phone and Connect haven’t been. No shade to the devs, but devs approach a solution differently when that is how they support themselves. Passion can only carry a project so far, speaking as a dev myself.
That makes a bit more sense. I didn’t realize it was being marketed as a professional/enterprise tool.
FOSS apps are hobbies. Sync is LJ’s job and will be better given the refinement it has received over years at reddit.
The lemmy user base is tiny compared to reddit, so the price is higher.
We also seem to be willing to pay it. Personally, I think it’s worth it
As long time sync user I’m very disappointed I didn’t see the remove ads button before I went and signed up for ultra. Wish I could still buy the permanent ad free while being an ultra subscriber. I tie my ultra to my Google play balance and depends on how much opinion rewards decides to give me at any given time.
It may just be a matter of perspective, but to me, fewer users and content should equal lower price, not higher. I understand what you mean about them not getting an equal amount of money from the user base since there are fewer users, but by that same token, those users are getting less content through the app due to the same reason.
Seems like it balances out where both sides should expect less until things pick up over time.
The Sync dev isn’t selling the content.
Supply and demand works the opposite of that. When there’s a niche market then things always cost more. It’s why my baddragon velocoraptor dildo cost me my second mortgage.
Lol, not going to lie, the bad dragon example makes sense.
You don’t have to pay anything to use Sync.
That’s my main hangup as well.
The one time app removal fee should be $10 or less. In line with other premium apps.
And the subscription rates are just bananas.
Cut all the prices in half and I wouldn’t have any issues.
…posted from Sync for Lemmy.
What’s bananas about $3/mo and 17/yr? Hell I pay 12 bucks a year for unlimited email aliases from Firefox 😂
Dude, at least people don’t use Reddit is what I think about this situation.
I don’t mind so much that it’s not FOSS. Developer needs paying, fair enough
I want an app without an egregious Privacy Policy that doesn’t bundle code that shares “Usage Data” with advertisers
Sync is great and I’m happy to pay for a quality user experience to support a solo dev.
I’ve read somewhere that
it’s a team and not a solo dev but it was stated in a comment and I’m too lazy to do some research,so I’m sorry for this useless comment.Sync is one guy. Ljdawson. Always has been.
Aight thanks for the correction, I tried to google after my comment but found nothing. I need to scale up my ability to look for information.
I use Linux and tons of other open source software daily. I have published and maintain a number of open source projects, and contribute regularly to others.
I also pay for closed source software and have a few proprietary apps that I sell.
There’s a place for both models, they’re not exclusive.
Obligatory xkcd comic.
Mega corporations are apparently equivalent to solitary, independent developers now.
Seems so, sadly.
Apparently for some every developer should work only for love and affection from their cardboard box and release their software as a free-for-all, but at least feature-complete before they starve, or else it gets a negative review.
You do know that it’s possible to charge for, pay for and financially support open source software, right? There are even things like Patreon as well.
Most people don’t do that. Look at the donor count for Lemmy World vs DAU.
LJ (dev of Sync) has had a patreon for years. The patrons pale in comparison to the people who used Sync for Reddit, and I’m sure Lemmy as well. Patron-types are outliers among outliers.
My point about still being able to charge stands. I’ve seen OSS do it - if you want it quick and convenient you pay e.g. through Google Play store or official website. Yes cheapskates will compile it themselves or fork it or grab a free version from F-droid etc but they were probably going to pirate it if it was closed software anyway.
Facebook was built using open source software…
People don’t like to make sacrifices today to avoid a potential disaster tomorrow. Especially when that disaster is only theoretical. (See the climate crisis.)
At work I’ve started taking an ‘I told you so’ photo of problems on the day they are identified so I can bring it up at 6 months later when it finally fails. Would recommend.
I’m using Sync right now. I’ve tried a few different lemmy apps and this is the only one that actually works without bugs. Maybe because it’s a paid developers full time job and not just some free side project?
I do wish it wasn’t a subscription. Apps are generally a flat fee.
yeah I think I’ll go to the ad removal fee. it’s expensive but I use it a lot 🤷♂️
I originally did the monthly sub because I didn’t have an option and that was the cheapest, it is kinda pricey but it’s light years ahead of what I was using
also I’m a developer and I think the guy who made it has probably working like mad to make this, and if it’s his sole income and it got pulled out from under him… idk. it’s a gamble to not just go get a 9-5 and work on this instead
bro has to eat and I already donate to my local instance.
I love Sync but it’s worth noting some basic features aren’t implemented yet like submitting posts.
Wait… are you saying that you can’t post using Sync? Wtf.
bahahaha - all these people ready to hand over their hard-earned and you can’t even submit a post?
Dev’s built a lot of user trust over the years. He says it’s coming within the week. The app JUST released.
The point is, he’s already charging an exorbitant ongoing subscription cost and it isn’t even finished. I do not understand you people.
Comments like these really show you how much of Reddit has moved over to Lemmy. Annoying toxicity and all.
We may not like it, but this is what progress looks like?
Wait until the non-technical reddit exiles learn about defederation and start whipping themselves up into frenzies trying to purge things they mildly disagree with or flat out don’t like. Just like the good old days on reddit with banning people for participating in verboten subreddits.
Keep the worst of reddit and Twitter off lemmy, folks. Plenty of platforms for those types.
deleted by creator
And?
Some people have jobs and can afford to pay for things.
Lol
To be fair, a lot of those people are Reddit refugees that fled to lemmy.world and were fairly removed to begin with. I’m honestly not even sure why they left Reddit to begin with.
I wouldn’t say it’s entirely bug free. There are silent crashes and sometimes your position is lost but it works fine.
Sync is 1 person
Proprietary software means leverage against you in the future. Je could sell out to evilcorp any day. However, I agree and of all the proprietary software, a good reputation small team that is upfront about their plan and treat their community of user with respect, is the most tolerable way to use closed source software under capitalism.
Just know enshittification is always on the table with closed source.
That’s true that that’s the case but when that does happen foss alternatives will still be there. Just like they’re here now. I just prefer apps that have a good UX
Yes, the probably of that client, sucking all the air out of the room for alternatives, is very low
My view is, I paid $13 for an ad free one-time purchase, and I used the old sync for years, so if I see news that the app has been sold out to some shady company I’ll just switch back to the free ones I was using prior to sync. I trust the Dev until there’s reason not to. I do feel the way the ads and trackers were just glossed over on release and kinda just defaulted unless you read through and manually disabled them was really strange, but I’m glad the ad-free IAP was implemented later the same day
Yes, the underlying system is fully open, there are good, healthy alternative client, it’s not a recurrent expense, presumably there’s nothing stopping you using the current version forever.
As far as closed source goes this is probably as bening as you can get. The only leverage the devs get against you is not updating it.
In today’s shitware-as-a-service hellscape, this normal deal is now a good deal.
Precisely, I trust the Dev from the constant engagement with the community as well as Sync being one of the most respected third-party clients from the Reddit hellscape for years with my use included. I have no reason not to trust the Dev based on rapport alone, but as long as things don’t take a dive I’ll keep using Sync as it grows to its potential. My biggest complaint was the subscription model, but the permanent ad removal was all I wanted because I don’t need any of the cloud features that the subscriptions provide
Wait I thought it was $20 for the ad free version?
No idea in that case, I just checked and it was only $12.99 for me. It feels like everyone is getting a different price lol
It was only that price if you managed to buy it immediately after going live. The pricing was adjusted a short while later.
This, but I’m holding out for boost for lemmy because I loved boost for reddit
Foss problems without FOSS benefits
Let’s be honest though, when everyone is shifting to the fediverse to avoid corporate shit, they’re more likely to gravitate to other things that are free and open and be less interested in something closed and for-profit
People didn’t shift to Lemmy because of the anti corporate mentality, we shifted because the Reddit app is garbage and there’s no 3rd party apps anymore
I don’t dislike the dog, I just dislike the fur and the barking
Yes, that’s reasonable.
I love the dog, but I hate the owner for not training and taking care of it properly.
Hard agree. For me Sync was Reddit. Once it stopped working I had no reason to put up with a substandard experience. I do miss the content and would probably even go back if they reversed their stance.
I just installed it and I really like the UI/UX. Also if im always trying to use free and open source software sometimes it doesnt change anything if an app isnt open source.
Came from using Sync for probably close to a decade on Reddit, so I’m definitely a creature of habit switching back for it on Lemmy. That being said, I tried ALL the apps looking for a solid experience and nothing delivers like Sync (opinion). All of them were missing something that completed my experience, was that experience coloured by my time with Sync on Reddit, sure. For all the options Sync gives me I’m willing to pay the dev half the cost of a steak dinner. I’ve already spent 100x longer on Sync for Lemmy than it would take me to eat said steak.
As for FOSS, let’s just say it’s not the be all / end all. Look at all the options that Sync brought to the table in a month that Lemmy hasn’t added in the whole of its development.
Personally I feel like most of the folks complaining about Ads in Sync are just complaining to complain. The FOSS crowd is also the most likely to use ad blocking, filtered dns providers, pi-hole, adguard etc and if that’s the case they won’t even see a single Ad.
I am willing to use Sync only because of my ability to block all the ads. Once something better comes around I will use that.
