I love socialism but what is with North American kid’s love for communism? I assume you guys love the idea of it but you must know that the idea of communism relies on humans not being selfish and humans willingness to share the wealth and power which is not a reality. I say this as someone who has lived and grown up under an oppressive, communist regime, not just as someone who romanticizes it.
What fucked up things people do with that is an entirely different problem.
You can have an oppressive communist regime. You can also have an oppressive capitalistic regime. Both could be really good and beneficial for everyone.
Heck, even a dictatorship could be a good governing system given a wise and benevolent dictator who has the best of all in their mind.
The problem with all of these economic, governmental and societal systems are humans. All of those systems require a specific set of properties from humans in order to work well. The problem is, that not all humans meet those requirements. There is no system which takes humans as they are, with all their good qualities and all of their faults, to get the best out of humanity for humanity.
From an engineering perspective, this is really stupid. But it’s immensely difficult as well. There are no simple solutions to the complexity of humans and their interactions. Which is why systems with self-correcting mechanisms might have an advantage. For example, democracies. However, those too have many pitfalls to address.
Point is, communism is not inherently bad. It can be good, if no one exploits it.
Even capitalism can be good, if no one is greedy and exploits others. There’s a lot of ifs. Improve the system or change it. Whatever might be better. But I don’t think it’s as simple as blaming it all on one core idea of a system itself, rather than to look how badly it was implemented.
On that note, I’m so glad democracy was defeated forever with the fall of Athens. Everyone knows one state failing a method of government means it can never work.
you must know that the idea of communism relies on humans not being selfish and humans willingness to share the wealth and power which is not a reality.
Lol no, no it’s not at all. It’s actually specifically the opposite. At least for materialist communists.
If you could just rely on humans being selfless and willing to share, capitalism itself would be a great system. That’s just not how it works.
Communism is more about recognizing the individualist greed and selfishness which is not only allowed but encouraged within capitalism, and limiting its harmful effects.
Again, on paper. The moment you put together a communist government with humans involved, those same communist champions will give in greed and selfishness and “everyone is equal, except for me cause I help run things so I should get a bit extra and so should my family and relatives and friends” and so on. Again, communism is great on paper but has it ever worked as it was intended? Ever?
The moment you put together a communist government with humans involved, those same communist champions will give in greed and selfishness
Did you even read what I said? Of course some people will give in to greed, that’s why the system has to be formed in a way to not reward it, which capitalism does the opposite of. Greed and selfishness exist everywhere, the only difference is do you reward it or limt it’s influence.
“everyone is equal, except for me cause I help run things so I should get a bit extra and so should my family and relatives and friends” and so on.
And this doesn’t exist under capitalism? That’s literally the basis of the exploitation of labour value…the bourgeois feel entitled to part of (most of) the workers production.
Again, communism is great on paper but has it ever worked as it was intended? Ever?
Communism itself has not, and can not exist while the global dominant order is a capitalist one.
The most we have experienced so far is different levels of socialism with different characteristics based on the historical and material realities within those countries.
Now when these socialist states have made clear their goal of communism (China, Vietnam, Cuba) then they are colloquially “communist countries” and are led by communists, but they are still in different stages of socialism out of necessity, and yes, I would say it works well in these countries, particularly better than capitalism. Though obviously no country or person is perfect.
Ok, but why are you putting Cuba’s issues at the feet of the u.s? I get it, I mean Americans destroyed my country and killed my people by funding one side of a proxy war on my country, but the Russians funded the other. But I still blame my country’s leaders for giving in and for being bought.
I blame Cuban leaders for the shit show that Cuba became.
Anyways, I’m not Cuban, but I grew up in a place where communists were every bit as brutal and violent as you get. So I have an aversion to a communist government, despite the good ideas it puts forth on paper.
I love socialism but what is with North American kid’s love for communism? I assume you guys love the idea of it but you must know that the idea of communism relies on humans not being selfish and humans willingness to share the wealth and power which is not a reality. I say this as someone who has lived and grown up under an oppressive, communist regime, not just as someone who romanticizes it.
Communism is an idea. Just as capitalism is.
What fucked up things people do with that is an entirely different problem.
You can have an oppressive communist regime. You can also have an oppressive capitalistic regime. Both could be really good and beneficial for everyone.
Heck, even a dictatorship could be a good governing system given a wise and benevolent dictator who has the best of all in their mind.
The problem with all of these economic, governmental and societal systems are humans. All of those systems require a specific set of properties from humans in order to work well. The problem is, that not all humans meet those requirements. There is no system which takes humans as they are, with all their good qualities and all of their faults, to get the best out of humanity for humanity.
From an engineering perspective, this is really stupid. But it’s immensely difficult as well. There are no simple solutions to the complexity of humans and their interactions. Which is why systems with self-correcting mechanisms might have an advantage. For example, democracies. However, those too have many pitfalls to address.
Point is, communism is not inherently bad. It can be good, if no one exploits it. Even capitalism can be good, if no one is greedy and exploits others. There’s a lot of ifs. Improve the system or change it. Whatever might be better. But I don’t think it’s as simple as blaming it all on one core idea of a system itself, rather than to look how badly it was implemented.
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On that note, I’m so glad democracy was defeated forever with the fall of Athens. Everyone knows one state failing a method of government means it can never work.
Lol no, no it’s not at all. It’s actually specifically the opposite. At least for materialist communists.
If you could just rely on humans being selfless and willing to share, capitalism itself would be a great system. That’s just not how it works.
Communism is more about recognizing the individualist greed and selfishness which is not only allowed but encouraged within capitalism, and limiting its harmful effects.
Again, on paper. The moment you put together a communist government with humans involved, those same communist champions will give in greed and selfishness and “everyone is equal, except for me cause I help run things so I should get a bit extra and so should my family and relatives and friends” and so on. Again, communism is great on paper but has it ever worked as it was intended? Ever?
Did you even read what I said? Of course some people will give in to greed, that’s why the system has to be formed in a way to not reward it, which capitalism does the opposite of. Greed and selfishness exist everywhere, the only difference is do you reward it or limt it’s influence.
And this doesn’t exist under capitalism? That’s literally the basis of the exploitation of labour value…the bourgeois feel entitled to part of (most of) the workers production.
Communism itself has not, and can not exist while the global dominant order is a capitalist one.
The most we have experienced so far is different levels of socialism with different characteristics based on the historical and material realities within those countries.
Now when these socialist states have made clear their goal of communism (China, Vietnam, Cuba) then they are colloquially “communist countries” and are led by communists, but they are still in different stages of socialism out of necessity, and yes, I would say it works well in these countries, particularly better than capitalism. Though obviously no country or person is perfect.
sorry, my mistake, I totally meant to say I value “community” not “communism” ;)
(also, I’m not North American!)
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Ok, but why are you putting Cuba’s issues at the feet of the u.s? I get it, I mean Americans destroyed my country and killed my people by funding one side of a proxy war on my country, but the Russians funded the other. But I still blame my country’s leaders for giving in and for being bought. I blame Cuban leaders for the shit show that Cuba became.
Anyways, I’m not Cuban, but I grew up in a place where communists were every bit as brutal and violent as you get. So I have an aversion to a communist government, despite the good ideas it puts forth on paper.
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Cuba failing doesn’t mean communism failed.