Regular reminder that being an asshole is not a symptom of any form of neurodivergence. (You can replace “neurodivergent” with depressed, anxious, bipolar, etc. and the diagram works equally well)
ETA: social faux pas, awkwardness, and genuine symptoms of neurodivergence don’t make you an asshole. I shouldn’t have to say this? An “asshole” is someone who enacts a pattern of abusive, controlling, harassing, and/or harmful behavior with no remorse or concern for how other people are affected.
I guess MasterCard is either autistic or asshole now
Definitely asshole at the very least
Yeah I have two childhood friends that are brothers. Their other brother is very autistic. When we were kids a lot of people didn’t understand autism enough to get that while yes, his autism did affect the way in which he was a tremendous asshole, it didn’t cause it. He happened to have a shit personality and disability level autism
I agree but would qualify my agreement with a note:
Some of our neurodivergent traits come across as assholeish or rude behavior and while most of us try and temper and mask it does slip out especially in high stress situations.
Intention matters.
I think it’s my responsibility to explain to coworkers and make super sure they understand how I am especially after a high stress event (for me that’d likely be a server outage in production).
This is true! But there’s a very easy way to tell the difference.
When you find out you hurt someone’s feelings, do you apologize, express how terrible you feel about it, and try to do better? Not an asshole.
Do you double down, make excuses, and blame them for feeling bad? Asshole.
Saying the wrong thing doesn’t make you a jerk. Not caring about other people’s feelings, does.
You’re still making it a bit too easy for you. “Not caring about other people’s feelings” is very close to “Not able to understand why somebody reacts and feels a certain way” but is definitely not the same thing.
I’m a parent to (at least one diagnosed so far) autistic child and there are plenty of situations in which this very kind, friendly and empathic person is simply unable to understand why one of the other siblings reacted as they did. Has nothing to do with whether they care or not.
This is valid criticism and I’m going to sit with it.
All the same, most of the (adult) autistic folks I’ve known in my life have been quick to apologize and take responsibility, even when other peoples’ reactions don’t make sense to them.
Absolutely. Part of masking is to emulate behavior you’ve observed even though you don’t understand it.
The child in question often need us parents to point out what happened and then they’re able to say the correct things. What I meant was that it’s not obvious to them that someone got offended - at all - to begin with.
Well said and point well taken.
I always encourage people to communicate, gently and clearly, what the other person did that was hurtful. I have so much empathy for people who are clueless (hi, hello, it’s me). But no empathy at all for people who callously, intentionally harass and hurt others.
OK, but being able to understand the reasons why a person is upset is irrelevant to how you respond when you’re made aware that your actions upset them.
Again, if you apologize and try to understand your mistake, you’re not an asshole.
“Not understanding other people’s feelings” is called lacking empathy, which is a common autism symptom. I’m saying this because it seems like you might be confusing “empathy” with caring about people, a misconception which harms people who lack empathy.
That’s an old misconception. Autistic people don’t lack empathy any more than neurotypical people. Autistic people may not react the way a neurotypical person expects somebody with empathy to react, but that doesn’t mean there’s no feeling of empathy. Sometimes we can easily understand someone’s feelings, but still not know what we’re expected to do in response to that information.
Do you double down, make excuses, and blame them for feeling bad? Asshole.
I often inconvenience people in a particular way. (I’m very frequently late.) I apologize a lot but then I keep doing the same thing. It’s really hard for me not to, I get why this frustrates people, and I don’t blame anyone who refuses to put up with the inconvenience. However, people often assume that I keep inconveniencing them because I don’t respect them, and I want them to understand that that’s not what’s going on.
Hey that’s valid! A good friend of mine has the exact same thing. He’s up front about it, he apologizes when it’s excessive, and he’s more than happy to explain why it’s difficult for him. It’s just a thing, and if I’m going to be his friend, that means accepting it about him.
In other words, he’s done his best to help me understand him. Now it’s my turn to not be an asshole.
Intention matters.
It matters up to a point where the negatives outweigh the good intentions, same as everyone else.
There’s absolutely a point where I’m not going to mask for the sake of social niceties. I try my best to not be a jerk though, but there are so many situations where I’ve been called rude for not following the NT script. For example, stopping someone, saying I don’t want to have a conversation right now, and walking away. Not an excuse to avoid difficult talks either, just when it’s a convo about whatever random thing and I don’t have the capacity to listen.
“I don’t care what’s wrong with you. If you’re an asshole, you’re an asshole”
This has stuck with me for about 15 years now. A neurodivergent stage crew member who was consistently an asshole was being an asshole again, so this other kid just yelled at him and told him off. Everyone in the room gave him the shocked Pikachu face because he yelled at the ND kid. Someone said “dude, you cant yell at him” and then he laid down this quote.
@5oap10116 @isaaclyman Being diagnosed with all kinds of crap before they finally settled on AuDHD, I’ve always sworn by “Diagnosises can be an explanation but never a shield.”
Own your shit.
I feel like I’m missing something here.
Something many groups need to hear, not just the ND crowd.
Damn right.
The sentiment is right, but using the phrase wrong with you, might be a little harsh. There’s nothing wrong with them, they are who they are.
None of that excuses being an asshole though.
Wrong with you would be more like if they’re going through a breakup and they aren’t themselves, or going through grief over something etc.
But directed at a ND person where it can come off as being about their ND isn’t good.
Edit: “I don’t care what’s going on with someone, if they’re an asshole they’re an asshole” would be a better option
I don’t go around as a 30 something saying the words of a 15 yr old. Yes it is not as tactful as it should be and I understand the nuance but the idea is the same and I’m not going to change what happened.
I’m not going to change what happened.
Thats also fair. It’s a story you’re telling and it’s what happened.
Don’t yell at people. The right answer is to tell them that they are a problem privately.
This looks like a MasterCard. I can’t unsee it.
Credit companies are indeed assholes
The diagram also looks like a butt. Assholes confirmed.
But are they neurodivergent?
I just clicked this post to write this 😭 🙏
Yes, but it’s IMHO not as clear cut. Some of the things we do because of our executive function disorder can be interpreted as us being assholes by those we interact with. One can act like an asshole at times and not intrinsically be one. Some things are perceived as assholeish by some people but not others.
So my take on this is that they still need to be told they are behaving like an asshole. The behavior is inappropriate regardless of the reason. Like " Go away and come back when you have yourself under control and sorry this is hard for you."
Or a simple, “hey, that was rude. It hurt my feelings.” Most of the ND people I know would respond, “I’m so sorry, I didn’t mean to be a jerk. I’ll do better.”
Not all situations are simple. Someone is lashing out at people because their mother died. Everyone is understanding. But if you tell the person who is lashing out to cut it out because they’re being an asshole, then suddenly you’re an asshole, not the person behaving as an asshole initially.
There are a lot of similar situations with similar or other severity.
On the other hand, it’s not always something we actively do. If I lose focus on something I was doing with someone or on a conversation, I didn’t do it on purpose, and I literally couldn’t help it. I have definitely been called an asshole for it before, but calling me out on it doesn’t do anything but make me feel like shit cause it happened again, and as I know it always will, I now know you’ll always think I’m being one
There are simply fine lines. One problem I’ve seen is ND once diagnosed using their ND diagnosis as a crutch rather than a tool to understand and work with themselves.
Certainly there’s a level of “This person is ND and will never behave in a NT way” that society needs to accept and get over. But on the flip side, there are certainly ND people that will use it as an excuse to be an asshole rather than looking for tools to minimize the impact both on them and others.
I wear and need glasses. I’d be an asshole if I drove without them even though I have a medical condition that makes it hard for me to see without glasses. A ND diagnosis doesn’t mean that no rules need apply, it means that a struggle in life will be figuring out the best way to work around them.
Intention vs Impact. I recognize that it might not be my intention and it might be fully outside my control, but I was being an ass. Being called out when I do it is good and important, because it helps me figure out next steps - how do I recover from what I missed, how do I make them feel heard, do I have the type of relationship with this person to share my ND?
Part of accepting myself as ND is being able to be called an asshole, accept I was being an asshole, but understanding that it doesn’t make me a bad person and I shouldn’t feel bad about it since it was outside my control but use it as a chance to figure out the best next steps.
I think (hope) most people can tell the difference between symptoms of atypical neurology (lateness, awkwardness, forgetfulness, zoning out et al) and hurtful/abusive/controlling behavior. And if they can’t, they’re just not our people. That’s a whole different Venn diagram though
The behavior is inappropriate regardless of the reason.
There are tons of things that people do that are considered asshole or not asshole depending on who is involved, the context, and intentions.
Pointing out someone’s addiction issues is often a social offense because ‘everyone knows it’ and it causes trouble. But interventions are things, and friends calling someone out in public might be the way it gets through to them.
Sometimes people make fun of others in public which is fine if both of them are fine with it and they avoid certain topics, but those can vary widely by person and the audience.
Hell, pointing out that someone is being an asshole is often considered inappropriate!
I think it depends. My son is deep on the spectrum. He’s pretty pleasant, and he can tell if he’s making someone upset or angry, but often has no idea why.
I could absolutely see him being rude or making someone uncomfortable without knowing it, and in many cases I think it would be a challenge to help him even comprehend how or why he was doing so, even if he could tell it was happening.
One of the things that makes me feel the worst for him is when he can tell he’s not handling a situation “correctly” but has no idea why. It really upsets him.
So yeah, I cut people who I think might be ND some slack.
Your kid doesn’t sound like an asshole, so IMO all good.
This is just an ad for MasterCard; change my mind.
You got me. Mastercard: the credit card for neurodivergents, assholes, and everything in between
“There are some things money can’t buy. For everything else, there’s neurodivergence.”
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Chances are he thinks this is what it means to be a male friend. That doesn’t make it right of course but that’s probably what’s going on. This is likely due to him being abused as a child in some way and now he thinks it is normal to abuse others.
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You aren’t being mean. Honestly it sounds like you went out of your way to be nice.
I just think that chances are there is note going on. It really isn’t on you and he may just dislike you as a person.
had this happen in politics subs. “wow i can’t believe you hold the beliefs you do, what kind of neurodivergent are you?” has deadass happened
i would rather you call me a slur :(
I’m direct and highly value honesty, but I’ve learned that’s no excuse for lacking tact. Being a minimal degree of kind and polite to neurotypical people isn’t particularly difficult, it’s just learning to interface with someone whose emotional drivers you may not completely share. It’s easier than learning to interface with a nonverbal species like a cat or a parrot.
How did you learn? I’m asking because that’s not something I’m seeing discussed here.
I don’t even think most of the commenters here have given it any thought.
It’s kind of important to the topic because at least part of the problem is that education is lacking both in NT and ND people as far as how we both developed healthy boundaries to mitigate “being an asshole”.
If nobody tells you your behavior is not acceptable in a way you can comprehend then it’s a communication issue and and education issue. If it’s that then we should discuss that.
I started by reading “How to Gain Friends and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie. It’s a bit dated but was required for a college course. It helped me realize there were certain actions/routines that would give me consistently okay results with most NTs. Not great, just okay, but okay was a huge improvement.
That helped alleviate the often crippling anxiety I felt in many social situations with new people. Free to actually think when around NTs who weren’t charmed by my ND data dumps, perplexing eye contact, and random obsessions, I was able to actively observe social interactions between myself and others. From there, it was a matter of trying different things and learning to lick my wounds when I blew it. My standard apology for doing something that made someone uncomfortable was along the lines of "I’m so sorry, that came across wrong. What I was trying to convey is (X). I’m not the best communicator sometimes, but I’m working on it. Can we start over? " with direct eye contact and a strong, chagrined, “practiced in the mirror” smile.
That’s the jist of it. Getting over the basic skills and confidence hump is the hardest. Once you have those, it’s really no different that practicing a sport or playing a game. It’s learning to act but for the purpose of being genuine with those who might not understand your natural inclinations.
This drives me bananas.
On the one hand as someone with ASD, yeah, I would have loved to have a little more understanding growing up but on the other you do not get a free pass just because you are some flavor of “special”. Everyone is special. Everyone is a weird combination of neurotypcial and neurodivergent it’s just a matter of degree and how it’s all put together. When you say someone is neurotypical… how do you even know?
When you say that something is not your fault because you are neurodivergent did you even try to find a work-around? Did you try to find away to make the other person more comfortable? Did you try to exercise the understanding you demand of others? Or did you just say you don’t have to?
I hate that some people call ASD a disability. Sure it might be disabling at time but you shouldn’t use that as an excuse not to work hard and be successful. There is no reason that I need to walk around telling people I’m disabled. I realize some have it much harder than others but I think we all should work hard to try to be better especially since unemployment is so high.
I hate that some people call ASD a disability.
100%
Different people have different challenges. For me ASD is both very challenging at times but also a superpower.
since unemployment is so high.
It’s not though. Currently 4.2% which is on the low end of historical averages and what is considered “normal”. Not to discount your point but just to counter the ongoing narrative - largely false - about the current economy.
It is somewhere around 85% for autistic people
Elon Musk.
Hell in the UK we had the (ex?) host of MasterChef, Greg Wallace, accused of being inappropriate with women in the workplace and making them feel unsafe and uncomfortable around him - Nothing illegal (that I know of), sure, but enough that he was rightfully dropped from whatever broadcaster was employing him.
Cut to a week into the tabloid media meltdown, Greg claims he “thinks he’s on the spectrum” as an explanation for his sexually explicit and creepy behaviour around women. The usual shit where you’re neuro typical until you’re a prick then you’re actually an autistic smol bean uWu.
When that didn’t help, he then showed his true colours by claiming the “typical” kind of woman (I’m assuming he’s referring to the trope of “ugly” women complaining about sexual harassment) making the complaints that got him fired.
I was in a coffee shop a few years ago and a guy in line was wearing an O.G.R.E. shirt, a way old computer game from 1986.
I said “Nice shirt! Never played that game, though.”
Completely delighted, he ranted about his love for the game until my order was ready. And it was a bit hard to get away from him afterward.
This is definitely someone who could’ve fallen into that category.
But I don’t see it that way because I’m also neurodivergent and know people never engage with us like that. Might have made his day.
Just a little story from that borderline in the Venn diagram.
Sounds like you touched on their special interest. You almost certainly made their day, even if you felt a little awkward. I have autism and my special interest has changed several times, but that passion usually remains (especially if it lasted for a year or longer). It’s taken my entire adult life to figure out when people no longer care
I didn’t think anyone would have considered that asshole behavior. Annoying, maybe, but that doesn’t come across as mean.
I think a better example would be something like a coworker saying “You said you’d send me that information yesterday” which can be interpreted as “hey can you send me that information you mentioned?” OR “hey fucko, you lied to me”
That’s not asshole behavior. That’s called autistic infodumping.
Basically autistic people get dopamine from talking about there special interests. It is like riding a roller coaster and sometimes it is hard to stop.
When they ramble on about something you don’t care about or actively don’t want to discuss, say “Hey I don’t like this conversation, can we talk about something else?”
Yellow: “Oh sorry, I didn’t mean to make you uncomfortable.”
Red: “What? Why don’t you wanna talk about this, is it because you secretly hate me or are hiding something? Now I know we need to talk about it until I’m convinced you’re hearing what I have to say on this topic.”When they ramble on about something you don’t care about…
Or, hear me out, you could listen to them infodump because it will make them happy?
When I realize I’m dominating a conversation I will try to give other people space to talk and also let them know they can tell me to shut up. I won’t take it too personally.
Even if you let them know they can say shut up whenever, they likely won’t. The best bet is to do the first option all the time, because even with permission, most people still wouldn’t do it though they may want to.
