Can I ask which parts you feel most skeptical about? I’m not sure what your standards are for “100% solid science”, I might agree with you but I’m not sure.
Thank you for the guidance on how to approach this topic, though I feel a little confused. I thought I clearly stated gender identity comes from a biological place and that gender is not just a social construct, linking to two articles that cover everything I was trying to communicate (esp. the Julia Serano article). I guess if you didn’t read the articles and you just try to respond to my sentence it might not go well … Maybe the idea is that I need to make it more about my own experience or something, since people might feel differently about those statements being made by a trans person, but that feels … wrong to me somehow. We shouldn’t necessarily care who says something as to whether it’s a right view, even if who says what might be contextually relevant to interpretation. 🤔
Or maybe your point was that I need to connect the biological basis of gender identity more to the way social constructionism is problematic. (I don’t like focusing on validating / invalidating, since I think we can choose to be validating to something we don’t think is real or true, and truth might sometimes be invalidating. We probably can’t separate the moral concerns entirely from our theorizing, but it’s an important point that gender theories don’t succeed or fail based on whether they are trans affirming or not, but on whether they accord with reality and are backed by evidence. This goes for Ray Blanchard’s theories as much as Judith Butler’s.)
Sorry, I feel like I’m missing your point, but I really appreciate the attempt and I think I am getting glimpses of your point. My original comment was admittedly too short and lacking a lot of important context, which I was trying to economically back-fill with the articles I linked to. (Admittedly, I was short on time, and since this was a joke tweet I wasn’t taking it too seriously.)
i would also include that i do not believe that invalidating your/others’ experiences as sort of innately biologically transgender people is the intention of those that say gender is a social construct.
Oh of course, to the contrary I think a lot of people assume social constructionism is validating, so many people will tell me “gender is just a social construct” thinking they are signalling they are trans-accepting. It makes me cringe, it’s not a small part of why this particular thing upsets me and I bothered even linking to the article in the first place. I can’t stand the misinformation, and I also hate how it led to real world suffering, like with David Reimer. This is a view that needs to be revised, even if it is well intended.
opening a post with “gender identity is biological” is just uhh, quite a strong statement to open a comment with (
If someone hears a challenge to social constructionism they might assume I am endorsing biological essentialism, esp. if I’m talking about the biological basis of gender identity, so I get that. Partially I feel that is a problem with the reader, not a me-problem, but demanding people correctly parse and then read articles is probably a high bar and I should expect knee-jerk reactions if I’m not doing more work. Again, a lot of this was because I didn’t have enough time and I was under pressure when writing the message.
I think I’ll edit the post and try to clarify a bit. 😅
I can feel strongly about this issue, but it’s also something I bite my tongue on over and over - it creates this instability where maybe I feel a building need to address it sometimes because I can only handle so much. I know most people are shallow in their understanding of most things and even though that bothers me, I feel like that’s a problem with me, I am out of sync with everyone else. Still, when I’m not filtering or being quick I might accidentally slip into lecture mode. 😬
EDIT: oh, and I wanted to say - thank you for being so nice and patient with me, lol - you’re a real human and I appreciate that so much ✨ 💞 😊
if i get around to talking about the science stuff, i’ll do it in a separate comment. but i don’t wanna promise anything because i’m really busy lately and honestly, it’s not something i’m super interested in getting into the nitty gritty over… sorry…😅 (it’s also why i took so long to respond, my apologies)
so basically, the point i was trying to make, is that it seems like your post was trying to educate (which is fine and a noble goal by itself), but also, if i read into a little more, that it seemed like it was a little more personal to you. and when it comes to persuasion, especially in places like this, where we’re pretty much here to have conversations with our fellow people, i think it’s nice to be able to speak your personal truth, which can easily get muddied in the goal of educating (well, really, you just have to be explicit about what parts of your post are educating, and what parts are your personal experience)
for example, you might have said, “i feel like it can be invalidating to hear that gender is a social construct. gender roles and expectations can be harmful at times, but it’s also possible to find a great sense of joy and belonging in them, especially as a transgender person who had to fight for that for a long time. it can also feel especially invalidating because, due to both science and my personal experience, i feel that my gender isn’t just a social construct, but an inherent part of my being that’s dearly important to me” obviously, it’s still a little sterile because… this isn’t my personal experience. but the cool thing about speaking your personal experience, about speaking your truth, is that it allows other people to know you a bit more. and, for you to know you a little more, since trying to explain something helps you understand it… and yourself is no exception :)
additionally, i think it would help with that sense that you need to bite your tongue about the subject. it’s OK to speak your truth, even in a meme sub. that’s the cool thing about spaces like these, i think, especially where they’re smaller and explicitly trans-friendly. that’s what they’re here for, for people like you and i to share our genuine, lived experience
fwiw, i did read the articles, but i think the issue with articles, or just citing someone else’s words, is that they’re not your words. that’s why i asked for elaboration in the first place. everyone has a unique way of viewing things, and i was curious what your views were, not the people you were citing (and i mean, it wasn’t PURELY curiosity, i was a little concerned too; but that’s the cool thing about asking for elaboration, you can do it if you’re curious or worried, haha)
just some other thoughts: i think it would have been cool to hear about your personal connection to the links you posted, as well. how you came across julia serano, what her work means to you, or if/how it helped you along your personal gender journey. i still have no idea if this is about something personal to you, or if it’s just something you’ve heard from other people, and are advocating for in their place. this isn’t to say that any of your points are less valid for not presenting your personal stance; but it confuses your motivation, and knowing the motivation you speak from helps me understand the broader point you want to make better
and then, idk, a little about me because i feel weird having written this much without sharing: i’m a transgender man who experienced very little dysphoria in his life. i feel a little insecure about being trans in this regard, so i tend to let others talk and share their experiences. i would honestly say that biological/hormonal dysphoria is the worst dysphoria i deal with, and i didn’t even realize it until i got my first testosterone shot because… how would i? so that, along with a lot of self work i’ve done to internalize that i’m a legitimate man, regardless of how others view me / how my body looks / how i view myself / etc etc etc, has led to me being very comfortable and confident in myself, which i feel like is (unfortunately) somewhat rare amongst us as transgender folks. plus, hormonal transition has been kind to me, so i rarely get misgendered… and in the event i do, people are super apologetic, like IMMEDIATELY, because… they see me as a man. so in a lot of ways, i feel like my experience being trans isn’t really universal, and it’s also very binary, so i try to listen more than i talk
all of this to say, while i might, individually, feel like my experience of my gender is very biological / innate… i don’t feel strongly about it, and in fact, i feel rather privileged about it, to be so confident and secure about my gender identity. and i don’t know that every trans person would describe their identity in the same way. maybe someone out there feels that their gender is a social construct, or they’re not sure where it comes from, or… any number of things that i might not be able to imagine. right? (i thought of a good example while washing dishes, actually; you know how a lot of trans girls say, “everyone knows girls have it easier”? when they’re still in egg mode?..) so my position is more or less that, regardless of what the actual basis you’re claiming (and that you don’t NEED to have a basis for it, at all), your gender identity is valid, however you claim it
and that uncertainty, and that belief, is the heart of the reason i pressed you about your point earlier, haha. so thank you for elaborating and putting my mind at ease, and allowing us to have this very pleasant conversation, instead
Can I ask which parts you feel most skeptical about? I’m not sure what your standards are for “100% solid science”, I might agree with you but I’m not sure.
Thank you for the guidance on how to approach this topic, though I feel a little confused. I thought I clearly stated gender identity comes from a biological place and that gender is not just a social construct, linking to two articles that cover everything I was trying to communicate (esp. the Julia Serano article). I guess if you didn’t read the articles and you just try to respond to my sentence it might not go well … Maybe the idea is that I need to make it more about my own experience or something, since people might feel differently about those statements being made by a trans person, but that feels … wrong to me somehow. We shouldn’t necessarily care who says something as to whether it’s a right view, even if who says what might be contextually relevant to interpretation. 🤔
Or maybe your point was that I need to connect the biological basis of gender identity more to the way social constructionism is problematic. (I don’t like focusing on validating / invalidating, since I think we can choose to be validating to something we don’t think is real or true, and truth might sometimes be invalidating. We probably can’t separate the moral concerns entirely from our theorizing, but it’s an important point that gender theories don’t succeed or fail based on whether they are trans affirming or not, but on whether they accord with reality and are backed by evidence. This goes for Ray Blanchard’s theories as much as Judith Butler’s.)
Sorry, I feel like I’m missing your point, but I really appreciate the attempt and I think I am getting glimpses of your point. My original comment was admittedly too short and lacking a lot of important context, which I was trying to economically back-fill with the articles I linked to. (Admittedly, I was short on time, and since this was a joke tweet I wasn’t taking it too seriously.)
Oh of course, to the contrary I think a lot of people assume social constructionism is validating, so many people will tell me “gender is just a social construct” thinking they are signalling they are trans-accepting. It makes me cringe, it’s not a small part of why this particular thing upsets me and I bothered even linking to the article in the first place. I can’t stand the misinformation, and I also hate how it led to real world suffering, like with David Reimer. This is a view that needs to be revised, even if it is well intended.
If someone hears a challenge to social constructionism they might assume I am endorsing biological essentialism, esp. if I’m talking about the biological basis of gender identity, so I get that. Partially I feel that is a problem with the reader, not a me-problem, but demanding people correctly parse and then read articles is probably a high bar and I should expect knee-jerk reactions if I’m not doing more work. Again, a lot of this was because I didn’t have enough time and I was under pressure when writing the message.
I think I’ll edit the post and try to clarify a bit. 😅
I can feel strongly about this issue, but it’s also something I bite my tongue on over and over - it creates this instability where maybe I feel a building need to address it sometimes because I can only handle so much. I know most people are shallow in their understanding of most things and even though that bothers me, I feel like that’s a problem with me, I am out of sync with everyone else. Still, when I’m not filtering or being quick I might accidentally slip into lecture mode. 😬
EDIT: oh, and I wanted to say - thank you for being so nice and patient with me, lol - you’re a real human and I appreciate that so much ✨ 💞 😊
if i get around to talking about the science stuff, i’ll do it in a separate comment. but i don’t wanna promise anything because i’m really busy lately and honestly, it’s not something i’m super interested in getting into the nitty gritty over… sorry…😅 (it’s also why i took so long to respond, my apologies)
so basically, the point i was trying to make, is that it seems like your post was trying to educate (which is fine and a noble goal by itself), but also, if i read into a little more, that it seemed like it was a little more personal to you. and when it comes to persuasion, especially in places like this, where we’re pretty much here to have conversations with our fellow people, i think it’s nice to be able to speak your personal truth, which can easily get muddied in the goal of educating (well, really, you just have to be explicit about what parts of your post are educating, and what parts are your personal experience)
for example, you might have said, “i feel like it can be invalidating to hear that gender is a social construct. gender roles and expectations can be harmful at times, but it’s also possible to find a great sense of joy and belonging in them, especially as a transgender person who had to fight for that for a long time. it can also feel especially invalidating because, due to both science and my personal experience, i feel that my gender isn’t just a social construct, but an inherent part of my being that’s dearly important to me” obviously, it’s still a little sterile because… this isn’t my personal experience. but the cool thing about speaking your personal experience, about speaking your truth, is that it allows other people to know you a bit more. and, for you to know you a little more, since trying to explain something helps you understand it… and yourself is no exception :)
additionally, i think it would help with that sense that you need to bite your tongue about the subject. it’s OK to speak your truth, even in a meme sub. that’s the cool thing about spaces like these, i think, especially where they’re smaller and explicitly trans-friendly. that’s what they’re here for, for people like you and i to share our genuine, lived experience
fwiw, i did read the articles, but i think the issue with articles, or just citing someone else’s words, is that they’re not your words. that’s why i asked for elaboration in the first place. everyone has a unique way of viewing things, and i was curious what your views were, not the people you were citing (and i mean, it wasn’t PURELY curiosity, i was a little concerned too; but that’s the cool thing about asking for elaboration, you can do it if you’re curious or worried, haha)
just some other thoughts: i think it would have been cool to hear about your personal connection to the links you posted, as well. how you came across julia serano, what her work means to you, or if/how it helped you along your personal gender journey. i still have no idea if this is about something personal to you, or if it’s just something you’ve heard from other people, and are advocating for in their place. this isn’t to say that any of your points are less valid for not presenting your personal stance; but it confuses your motivation, and knowing the motivation you speak from helps me understand the broader point you want to make better
and then, idk, a little about me because i feel weird having written this much without sharing: i’m a transgender man who experienced very little dysphoria in his life. i feel a little insecure about being trans in this regard, so i tend to let others talk and share their experiences. i would honestly say that biological/hormonal dysphoria is the worst dysphoria i deal with, and i didn’t even realize it until i got my first testosterone shot because… how would i? so that, along with a lot of self work i’ve done to internalize that i’m a legitimate man, regardless of how others view me / how my body looks / how i view myself / etc etc etc, has led to me being very comfortable and confident in myself, which i feel like is (unfortunately) somewhat rare amongst us as transgender folks. plus, hormonal transition has been kind to me, so i rarely get misgendered… and in the event i do, people are super apologetic, like IMMEDIATELY, because… they see me as a man. so in a lot of ways, i feel like my experience being trans isn’t really universal, and it’s also very binary, so i try to listen more than i talk
all of this to say, while i might, individually, feel like my experience of my gender is very biological / innate… i don’t feel strongly about it, and in fact, i feel rather privileged about it, to be so confident and secure about my gender identity. and i don’t know that every trans person would describe their identity in the same way. maybe someone out there feels that their gender is a social construct, or they’re not sure where it comes from, or… any number of things that i might not be able to imagine. right? (i thought of a good example while washing dishes, actually; you know how a lot of trans girls say, “everyone knows girls have it easier”? when they’re still in egg mode?..) so my position is more or less that, regardless of what the actual basis you’re claiming (and that you don’t NEED to have a basis for it, at all), your gender identity is valid, however you claim it
and that uncertainty, and that belief, is the heart of the reason i pressed you about your point earlier, haha. so thank you for elaborating and putting my mind at ease, and allowing us to have this very pleasant conversation, instead