I disagree. I’m far from an expert on Euromaidan, but from what I gathered, the perspective of the Donbas is widely ignored by most western media. I only managed to find articles in German, so you’ll have to excuse me, but if you’re interested, you’ll probably find a way to translate those:
I’m not ignoring the counter-protests in the east. To my knowledge most of the ones that happened during Euromaidan either had people paid to “protest” or they could barely get people together to protest. Most of the eastern protests happened after Euromaidan and considering how quickly Russia jumped into those regions I wouldn’t be surprised if they were a front to destabilize those regions.
Those articles suggest that the Euromaidan was not only a “pro EU” thing, but can be understood as an attempt of ultranationalist Ukrainians to infiltrate the Ukrainian government. The same journalist said in an interview (sorry, in German as well) that she interviewed pro Maidan activists in 2014 and that she can’t imagine that the rebellion was this coordinated without the possibility of outside forces supplying training and resources to the combatants.
I’m also not ignoring the influence of nationalists and ultranationalists in Euromaidan, however it doesn’t change the nature of the protest because it started as protest against not signing the EU deal and it ended with a pro-EU government (and not an ultranationalist government). The ultranationalists actually started losing popularity the moment Euromaidan ended and over the years they’ve been slowly been rooted out from where-ever they dug into.
Sorry if I failed to make my point clear. My point isn’t that Putin isn’t an autocrat. My point is that Putin is acting as a state’s sovereign. He’s not acting out of his private interest, but out of the interest of a nation.
When you have an autocratic leader the state becomes an extension of their will. They can use the state for the interest of the nation or they can use the state for their own interests. I don’t consider myself so well versed in Putinomics to know when Putin is acting out of self-interest and when Putin is acting in the interest of the Russian nation. If you can somehow tell the difference, good for you. I personally don’t see how the war is in the interest of Russia (the nation). Sending your young people into the meat grinder is not in the interest of the nation (Ukranians on the front will tell you that Russia just keeps sending troops wave after wave straight into machinegun fire). Not retrieving your wounded is not in the interest of the nation. People struggling to put food on the table is not in the interest of the nation. I could keep going on about things that don’t affect the average Russian but I think I’ve made my point how this war is by no means in the interest of the nation, Russian people are also suffering because of this senseless war that Putin could end at any moment.
Yeah, the independence of the Ukrainian state. I don’t think that the interests of the Ukrainian state align with the Ukrainian people. Especially considering that the latter are currently dying in the name of the former. And if the former gets its “independence”, it will have done so at an incredible cost of human lives. And I doubt that all the debt from military aid (those aren’t “presents” from the west) will lead to fulfilling lives for Ukraine’s population in the future.
Yes, the “bad guys” are bad. But the “good guys” don’t act out of the kindness of their hearts, either.
A completely irrelevant point considering this discussion started with the statement that this war wouldn’t even happen if not for Russia. People wouldn’t be losing their lives if Russia never invaded in the first place. Military aid wouldn’t be necessary because there would be nobody to defend from. It all comes down to the fact that none of this would have happened if Russia hadn’t started it.
Their “pawn-ness” started way before 2022, when NATO did their sable-rattling in Ukraine. They can’t afford a neutral position. Just like Taiwan can’t and Vietnam or Cuba couldn’t.
I’ve been giving you the benefit of the doubt up to this point, but this is where I’m just going to call you a Russian propagandist because you’re either deliberately or ignorantly presenting Russian talking points. There is no NATO saber-rattling. NATO does not expand unless the country in question wants NATO to expand. Finland and Sweden are prime examples. NATO would’ve loved for those 2 countries to join, especially during the cold war. Bases literally in striking distance from Leningrad and Moscow? If it was up to NATO that’s 100% expansion. But it wasn’t. Finland had Finlandization and Sweden didn’t join out of solidarity for Finland. Even after the cold war Finland and Sweden didn’t want to join NATO until Russia invaded Ukraine.
As for Ukraine. You can look up the polls, Ukraine didn’t want to join NATO until Russia annexed Crimea, then within a matter of months the sentiment went from “I don’t want to join NATO” to “I want to join NATO”.
And for NATO itself, NATO was probably on the verge of dissolution before the Russian invasion. When Trump started talking about stepping out of NATO other countries started questioning if NATO is even necessary anymore. Russian invasion is what has reinvigorated NATO. As with the last two points, it always ends up coming back to Russia being a fucking shithead to its neighbors.
And if we get back to 2014, when all of this started, it didn’t start because Ukraine wanted to join NATO. It started because Ukraine wanted to join the EU. So NATO isn’t even the reason this is happening.
Now, feel free to take your Russian talking points and fuck off.
To my knowledge most of the ones that happened during Euromaidan either had people paid to “protest” or they could barely get people together to protest.
Sorry, that just reeks of propaganda to me. Donezk has a distinct national identity from before it was declared to be a part of Ukraine. Additionally, the region came under economic pressure through the talks between Kiew and Europe, which would explain why there would be protests erupting in 2014. Stating that these protestors were paid is a highly spuriops claim without sources.
The ultranationalists actually started losing popularity the moment Euromaidan ended and over the years they’ve been slowly been rooted out from where-ever they dug into.
When was that supposed to happen? Back in 2022, Selensky spoke at the Greek parliament, accompanied by the Azov battalion. Since you accuse me of spouting propaganda: this claim seems like propaganda to me, as well.
I personally don’t see how the war is in the interest of Russia (the nation).
Russia wants to assert its status as a super power in a world where the US don’t allow for other super powers beside them. I thought it was well established that Russia has imperialistic interests, wasn’t it?
(Ukranians on the front will tell you that Russia just keeps sending troops wave after wave straight into machinegun fire).
Ignoring the fact that what you’re going to hear from Ukrainian soldiers will be heavily filtered by Ukraine’s department of defense: AFAIK, That’s not (or no longer) Russia’s strategy. They’re currently very slow and methodical in kettling in their military targets. Ukraine is currently the one who puts their soldiers in the meat grinder by not evacuating Russia’s targets after they are considered to be lost.
Not retrieving your wounded is not in the interest of the nation. People struggling to put food on the table is not in the interest of the nation.
Yeah, that’s a good deterrent for war. So why do you think the war is still going? Because Putin is evil? I just don’t buy that childish logic which goes against any serious political analysis of anything.
BTW: Every state considers it justified to send outsits population into a war to secure its status as a sovereign. To a state that’s currently at war, human lives are nothing but a kind of resource to be used to reduce the enemy’s (human) resource. That’s what a war is. No matter if you’re Putin, Selensky or Wilhelm II.
A completely irrelevant point considering this discussion started with the statement that this war wouldn’t even happen if not for Russia.
Maybe, if you consider my point on the Ukrainian people (that should only give you context why I’m skeptical of Selensky). But the fact that the “good guys” are no angels definetly has something to do why “Putin just won’t stop”.
I’ve been giving you the benefit of the doubt up to this point, but this is where I’m just going to call you a Russian propagandist because you’re either deliberately or ignorantly presenting Russian talking points.
Ukraine has beefed up their military substantially between 2014 and 2020. That didn’t happen without the west’s help. And NATO is no stranger in involving itself outside its stated goals as a “defense treaty” (See: Kosovo war). I also don’t get how Sweden’s and Finland’s joining of NATO has anything to to with whether or not NATO provoked Russia. It is however a great example how NATO is used as an imperialist tool by its members, when you look at what Erdogan got out of Sweden joining NATO.
You’re accusing me of repeating Russia’s propaganda, I’m accusing you of repeating NATO’s propaganda. But at least I know that you shouldn’t trust either imperialist.
I’m not ignoring the counter-protests in the east. To my knowledge most of the ones that happened during Euromaidan either had people paid to “protest” or they could barely get people together to protest. Most of the eastern protests happened after Euromaidan and considering how quickly Russia jumped into those regions I wouldn’t be surprised if they were a front to destabilize those regions.
I’m also not ignoring the influence of nationalists and ultranationalists in Euromaidan, however it doesn’t change the nature of the protest because it started as protest against not signing the EU deal and it ended with a pro-EU government (and not an ultranationalist government). The ultranationalists actually started losing popularity the moment Euromaidan ended and over the years they’ve been slowly been rooted out from where-ever they dug into.
When you have an autocratic leader the state becomes an extension of their will. They can use the state for the interest of the nation or they can use the state for their own interests. I don’t consider myself so well versed in Putinomics to know when Putin is acting out of self-interest and when Putin is acting in the interest of the Russian nation. If you can somehow tell the difference, good for you. I personally don’t see how the war is in the interest of Russia (the nation). Sending your young people into the meat grinder is not in the interest of the nation (Ukranians on the front will tell you that Russia just keeps sending troops wave after wave straight into machinegun fire). Not retrieving your wounded is not in the interest of the nation. People struggling to put food on the table is not in the interest of the nation. I could keep going on about things that don’t affect the average Russian but I think I’ve made my point how this war is by no means in the interest of the nation, Russian people are also suffering because of this senseless war that Putin could end at any moment.
A completely irrelevant point considering this discussion started with the statement that this war wouldn’t even happen if not for Russia. People wouldn’t be losing their lives if Russia never invaded in the first place. Military aid wouldn’t be necessary because there would be nobody to defend from. It all comes down to the fact that none of this would have happened if Russia hadn’t started it.
I’ve been giving you the benefit of the doubt up to this point, but this is where I’m just going to call you a Russian propagandist because you’re either deliberately or ignorantly presenting Russian talking points. There is no NATO saber-rattling. NATO does not expand unless the country in question wants NATO to expand. Finland and Sweden are prime examples. NATO would’ve loved for those 2 countries to join, especially during the cold war. Bases literally in striking distance from Leningrad and Moscow? If it was up to NATO that’s 100% expansion. But it wasn’t. Finland had Finlandization and Sweden didn’t join out of solidarity for Finland. Even after the cold war Finland and Sweden didn’t want to join NATO until Russia invaded Ukraine.
As for Ukraine. You can look up the polls, Ukraine didn’t want to join NATO until Russia annexed Crimea, then within a matter of months the sentiment went from “I don’t want to join NATO” to “I want to join NATO”.
And for NATO itself, NATO was probably on the verge of dissolution before the Russian invasion. When Trump started talking about stepping out of NATO other countries started questioning if NATO is even necessary anymore. Russian invasion is what has reinvigorated NATO. As with the last two points, it always ends up coming back to Russia being a fucking shithead to its neighbors.
And if we get back to 2014, when all of this started, it didn’t start because Ukraine wanted to join NATO. It started because Ukraine wanted to join the EU. So NATO isn’t even the reason this is happening.
Now, feel free to take your Russian talking points and fuck off.
Sorry, that just reeks of propaganda to me. Donezk has a distinct national identity from before it was declared to be a part of Ukraine. Additionally, the region came under economic pressure through the talks between Kiew and Europe, which would explain why there would be protests erupting in 2014. Stating that these protestors were paid is a highly spuriops claim without sources.
When was that supposed to happen? Back in 2022, Selensky spoke at the Greek parliament, accompanied by the Azov battalion. Since you accuse me of spouting propaganda: this claim seems like propaganda to me, as well.
Russia wants to assert its status as a super power in a world where the US don’t allow for other super powers beside them. I thought it was well established that Russia has imperialistic interests, wasn’t it?
Ignoring the fact that what you’re going to hear from Ukrainian soldiers will be heavily filtered by Ukraine’s department of defense: AFAIK, That’s not (or no longer) Russia’s strategy. They’re currently very slow and methodical in kettling in their military targets. Ukraine is currently the one who puts their soldiers in the meat grinder by not evacuating Russia’s targets after they are considered to be lost.
Yeah, that’s a good deterrent for war. So why do you think the war is still going? Because Putin is evil? I just don’t buy that childish logic which goes against any serious political analysis of anything.
BTW: Every state considers it justified to send outsits population into a war to secure its status as a sovereign. To a state that’s currently at war, human lives are nothing but a kind of resource to be used to reduce the enemy’s (human) resource. That’s what a war is. No matter if you’re Putin, Selensky or Wilhelm II.
Maybe, if you consider my point on the Ukrainian people (that should only give you context why I’m skeptical of Selensky). But the fact that the “good guys” are no angels definetly has something to do why “Putin just won’t stop”.
Ukraine has beefed up their military substantially between 2014 and 2020. That didn’t happen without the west’s help. And NATO is no stranger in involving itself outside its stated goals as a “defense treaty” (See: Kosovo war). I also don’t get how Sweden’s and Finland’s joining of NATO has anything to to with whether or not NATO provoked Russia. It is however a great example how NATO is used as an imperialist tool by its members, when you look at what Erdogan got out of Sweden joining NATO.
You’re accusing me of repeating Russia’s propaganda, I’m accusing you of repeating NATO’s propaganda. But at least I know that you shouldn’t trust either imperialist.