“When you use Signal, your data is stored in encrypted form on your devices. The only information that is stored on the Signal servers for each account is the phone number you registered with, the date and time you joined the service, and the date you last logged on.”
This isn’t an ad, I wasn’t paid for this post. Just to clear the air: fuck facebook, fuck elon musk and twitter, fuck anyone who thinks this is a paid advertisement. I wish I was paid for this shit, I just wanted to spread the word. Thank you. 😀 👍
I still wish they hadn’t dropped sms on android. A few family members dropped signal as soon as they needed another app for messaging.
I still don’t understand why they did that, I used to use Signal for everything and while it was clear that it couldn’t encrypt basic SMS I could at least do all my messaging in one place. Now, I can’t communicate with 80% of my contacts via Signal even if I wanted to, forcing two separate messaging apps.
Just let me send unsecured messages. It’s fine. As it stands now I don’t think I’ve even opened Signal in nearly six months even though I’d much rather use it than the default messenger.
Basically, it makes the whole platform less secure because you could accidentally send a non-encrypted message at any time. With SMS-free Signal, at least mistaken sent messages are still E2E encrypted.
Is their goal to become the new de-facto messaging app? Or is their goal to become the most secure messaging app for whistle blowers, etc for whom a single mistake could mean losing their life or their freedom?
Have unsecured messages be opt-in and have a warning banner on non-encrypted messages. Maybe even a confirmation dialog.
That way people who want or need to be that paranoid can be, but the rest of us can have something a bit more convenient.
By disallowing SMS messaging they’ve just made it so a lot of people who were being secure when their contacts allowed, aren’t being secure at all.
If they are so concerned about the privacy and lives of whistleblowers they should implement usernames (and multiple accounts) instead of forcing people to give their cell phone numbers to others.
The use of cell phones in an app supposedly made for dissidents and whistleblowers is the stupidest decision I’ve ever seen.
Yeah, I’m basically in this boat. My OS is what brings my notifications together, and makes clear distinctions between the different apps I utilize. I don’t need one app to do everything. I use signal for sensitive business, having conversations about projects and sending credentials to coworkers. I use Teams for general work conversations. I use iMessage for nearly all other casual conversations - of those maybe 30% are SMS.
As an Android user, all I have to say is fuck iMessage. Dark pattern, anticompetitive piece of shit.
I think you mean Apple. Apple is an anticompetitive. They don’t want people to leave their ecosystem the moment they’ve bought a signal apple product.
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no reason
I mean, you can see at least one reason I’m sure
I only communicate with two people in signal. I still use it because I genuinely despise Android messenger.
2 people, one of which is your relative and the other drug dealer I imagine
Downvoted but the only people I know who used signal were drug dealers/users
Interesting. I use signal with my family, coworkers, and some friends. Never once done drugs, and only a couple people I know that use it did drugs in the past, and didn’t use signal then.
Sadly, I think they saw the writing on the wall with Google’s RCS push, and the decided lack of RCS APIs for Android apps to implement an RCS interface outside of Google. SMS has a lot of staying power, so it won’t happen overnight. But there’s a good chance that third-party RCS apps on Android will never be a real thing, or will forever end up hobbled. I think the Signal product folks imagined they had a LOT more clout than they actually had in the community. Sort of a less disastrous version of the Twitter and Reddit changes this year, trying to lock folks in.
The RCS issue hits the nail on the head I think. It’s really the biggest stumbling block for everyone at this point.
Still fascinates me how many folks in the US use SMS. It’s been dead for over a decade now over here. I mean I would have expected it to stay with a lot of folks using feature phones. But that also not the case as far as I know.
Because it’s a universal standard. It doesn’t matter if they have an android, and apple, a microsoft phone, some LG flip phone- SMS Just Works.
And the fact that Signal has dropped support for it is why Signal no longer works and has lost basically it’s entire US/European market, because it’s now just another walled garden that needs people to get people- and it doesn’t have the people.
I thought most parts of Europe are the ones that dropped SMS
Cuz, it was about killing functionality in order to grow their market share. Just go listen to the new lame ass Signal CEO. It’s capitalism that ruined Signal like it does everything
What are you talking about? Where did they say that? How does capitalism ruin a non-profit organization? It makes absolute sense for them to have removed SMS. Here’s their statement about the removal: https://www.signal.org/blog/sms-removal-android/
Yeah this same thing happened to me. I rarely get messages in signal anymore and can’t reliably know who still has it installed. It’s great for folks you are in regular communication with though.
I made it easy by making it the only messenger I use. Sure, you can send me a sms, but that’s not gonna work for pictures and especially videos.
Yupp. Had been working for a while on getting people to Signal, and then they dropped SMS, and they moved to other things and i couldn’t realy recommend it anymore.
Not only that, it makes people less likely to move to something new. I had almost everyone moved to signal. Now there’s one left, because it doesn’t work for SMS. Great choice they made. I haven’t even been able to convince one of my contacts to install simplex, and I doubt I’ll ever be able to. I had one shot, and wasted it on signal. I’m kind of salty.
This was always the hardest part of these types of apps for me… getting people who just want something to work and already have a working thing are pretty impossible to get to swtich
I removed it immediately because of this. It’s inconvenient to try and remember who I can communicate with through signal, and who I have to use a different app for. Signal jumped the shark.
Yup, I used Signal for years, it was my standard “messager” for everyone, people with Signal too or regular SMS. since they dropped SMS, I dropped Signal…
I’m very glad they did. It was hard to recommend while they did, it’s a huge security risk! Sms needs to die
First ad I’ve seen on Lemmy so far
nature is healing
We were here for it!
I’m fine about ads on Signal. It is a none profit. 😉
The worst part of using Signal is to try and convince all your friends/family to use Signal. Otherwise it’s a pretty great messaging app. You can’t edit messages once they’re sent, but other than that it’s pretty great.
I used to donate to Signal, and they made the stupidest fucking decision I’ve ever seen.
You used to be able to use signal (at least on Android) as your default messenger app, sending encrypted Signals to other users, or SMS to non-signal users. Have a normie family member who doesn’t know about computers? Easy, set it & forget it.
Now? They removed that functionality, so it only works for other signal users. Someone else had a good metaphor: imagine if http and https needed different web browsers & you couldn’t see one on the other. How well do you think https uptake would have been?
So fucking stupid.
I think that might be a narrow view though. Most of the world likely doesn’t use SMS anymore (for probably a decade). So removing SMS didn’t make much of a difference there, but increased security. Especially when people are used to use multiple apps anyways.
So the better analogy would be “imagine if gopher and http needed separate browsers”. Except they do.
Most of the world likely doesn’t use SMS anymore
Wow, so I guess all the countries in the world that DO still use it primarily, including the US, most of Europe, canada, etc, can go screw themselves?
Nobody wins when you try to gatekeep security. Stop doing that.
German here. Nobody ever uses SMS, literally nobody. They are only used for 2fa.
I’m aware of few people who use SMS in Europe, and very few people who use it as their primary means of texting; I’ve even seen people outright ask that they not be sent SMSs. WhatsApp is almost ubiquitous, and it often feels like it’s assumed everyone has it, even if they don’t use it as their primary texting method.
It does seem very common in the US, however.
Yeah. That’s my experience as well. I will also ask people to stop sending me SMS. The last time that happens was probably over 10 years ago though. Everyone I ever met (except for US folks) uses messengers nowadays. I mean even a lot of US folks use iMessage instead of SMS. Even though that’s weird as well. Since I would expect folks to use some universal app that isn’t restricted to a specific phone brand.
50% of the US uses Android. All android phones can text each other & iPhones by default via SMS in the US. The United States is 300 million people, and also the literal home of the Signal Foundation.
You’re right, that is a good analogy. Https used the same browser as http, and now https is widespread. Gopher needs a whole separate browser. It’s niche. Good security only works if people actually use it.
The US is a weird place. Feels like such a modern country but then they use technology from the last century and no one seems to question that …
Most of the world likely doesn’t use SMS anymore
That has not been the case from what I’ve seen (I’m Australian). The only widespread methods of communication I see are SMS and iMessage. Things like Discord and Instagram are only used among younger people.
Edit: Actually people do use Facebook messenger. Don’t know how many though
i miss SMS, makes it easy to sneak in a change. swap them to signal, where they do their SMS, and as people become signalified, then they start sending them signals. It was such a market creator for little cost.
Oh well.
50% of the US uses Android. All android phones can text each other & iPhones by default via SMS in the US. The United States is 300 million people, and also the literal home of the Signal Foundation.
You’re right, that is a good analogy. Https used the same browser as http, and now https is widespread. Gopher needs a whole separate browser. It’s nice. Good security only works if people actually use it.
Lmao WHAT? They seriously did this? Yeah say goodbye to having my boomer parents understand anything else other than what’s loaded on their shitty $50 android phone they got for free from their shitty CDMA provider…
I hear you, but, SMS is the farthest from secure you can get - so I can see why they chose not to support it.
A really secure messaging system is worthless if it’s not used. SMS too insecure? Ok, change the UI to reflect that. Have an open lock symbol or eye. Notification reminders that it’s insecure & nudge to invite your friend to Signal.
Boomer parents using Signal & now it doesn’t support SMS? Congrats, now the app doesn’t work to message the majority of their contacts. The average user isn’t going to check if someone’s on signal, send them an invite, then wait to message until they get the app. They’ll just move to their (Android) default message app that literally works with all US phones. Congrats, now less signal users, gj .
A really secure messaging system is worthless if it’s not used. SMS too insecure? Ok, change the UI to reflect that. Have an open lock symbol or eye. Notification reminders that it’s insecure & nudge to invite your friend to Signal.
Boomer parents using Signal & now it doesn’t support SMS? Congrats, now the app doesn’t work to message the majority of their contacts. The average user isn’t going to check if someone’s on signal, send them an invite, then wait to message until they get the app. They’ll just move to their (Android) default message app that literally works with all US phones. Congrats, now less signal users, gj .
But you CAN delete messages for after they are sent if the chat is set up that way. You can also set chats up so that messages can’t deleted. Or so that all messages expire and disappear after a period of time.
I wish they hadn’t gotten rid of SMS though, that was the biggest sell for me over other options. I’m never going to get more than 2 or 3 people I regularly text to switch…
Yes lol same. And because of the verification code that needs to be typed in every so often, my messages never reach them. I have to text them, “hey go to signal”, and then it finally goes through.
Fun fact: on Android after not using an app for more than three months (the exact time can vary by manufacturer) the OS will remove permissions including notifications (suppressing the app’s ability to run in the background) to save battery. So the app will literally stop working.
For a seldom used app like Signal that’s hurt from a lack network effect, this triggers a death spiral outside of the privacy enthusiast community. When it had SMS support this guaranteed some usage, but now that’s gone.
i too miss this. capture the messaging market, and keep the stock SMS function!
With this move, i am more keen to see matrix make it to the big leagues.
Question though? Why did they get rid of sms functionality?
Because they turned away from the original founder’s philosophy, which is that ‘perfect security’ is a pie-in-the-sky novelty that isn’t actually useful to anyone, and what’s actually important is security that people actually use. Even if it’s slightly less secure, it’s still a net positive because people are actually using it.
When he left, a google CEO took over and frankly it’s just been one terrible decision after another- cryptocurrencies, ‘stories’, stickers, removal of SMS, all kinds of stupid shit that drove people away.
I used to have nearly 50 people on my signal contacts list. Now there are 3.
This is fairly misinformed. The original CEO - Moxie stepped down in Jan 2022. Stickers and crypto functions were developed strictly under his watch. Stories came after. Nevertheless Moxie presided throughout the vast majority of Signal’s history. Moxie has been at the helm since Signal was Whisper Systems.
Here in the Netherlands no one uses SMS, purely Whatsapp. So removing this functionality, though often complained about by people presumably from the US, did not hurt functionality at all here. I also like the features like Stories, it’s a direct competition with Instagram/Snapchat, though just like Whatsapp Stories, barely anyone will use it.
Yes I am in the US and I understand that this is a US centric problem though SMS is the feature that set signal apart from other secure messaging apps and made it slightly easier to get people to join. It was a nice alternative to imessage on android as opposed to yet another messaging app. Even in the US I have had to use SMS, WhatsApp, fb messenger, instagram’s DMs, Line, Group me, Matrix, etc, to talk to different people and I was not going to convince many to switch to signal (I tried).
I do not like the fact that Signal requires a phone number to be used. If I want to talk to someone on Signal, I need to give him my Signal registered phone number. I do not understand why can’t they introduce User name like Telegram so we do not have to reveal our phone number to others.
Is this an ad? It feels like an ad.
Anyway I much prefer Signal but thanks to boomer co-workers I’m still also forced to use Whatsapp.
I have been disappointed by Signal a lot.
- They tie themselves very closely with Google services, to the point that they refuse to be on FDroid by design
- There was a long period when they stopped publishing server side code when they were bashing others like Telegram for not open sourcing their server side code
- Their Linux desktop client is absolutely horrible.
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They tie themselves very closely with Google services, to the point that they refuse to be on FDroid by design
While they do push the Play Store version, they also have an APK, and my understanding is that it does not rely on Google Play Services, though it might be buggier without them. If I recall correctly, the origin of Signal not being on F-Droid was related to the building and signature model that F-Droid used (builds by F-Droid, then signed by F-Droid’s keys), as mentioned in, eg, this issue. With that said, it has been pointed out that there are alternatives, like a separate repository, than, eg, the Guardian Project uses, and F-Droid apparently does now have a process for developer-signed apks.
Their general hostility toward outside developers and forks, however, and that the awkward server side code availability seemed to be related to the brazenly problematic cryptocoin advertisement, are extremely disappointing, however.
All fair complaints. I’ve managed to switch over all of my contacts to Signal (that I care to talk to, at least).
My biggest gripe is no back up support on iOS, meaning that if I lose my phone I lose everything. People have tried hand waving it away as a privacy feature, but I think backing up messages is a bare minimum for a messaging app - especially with the released of Advanced Data Protection for iCloud.
What do you find bad about the Linux client? It’s an electron app sure but from my experience it works well.
Yeah, then they got rid of SMS capabilities.
I use Signal but it’s on its own path to becoming enshittified too. Less like Reddit, more like Firefox, the people in charge are just clueless about the signal userbase.
It won’t be long until there’s a shift to an alternative because the current president of the signal foundation is one step away from turning it into Snapchat.
Instead of pumping money into increasing awareness or enhancing reliability of the service, the Signal team have wasted effort on features that nobody asked for, including its very own crypto shitcoin (a major red flag for any company). They also remove features people relied on, such as SMS support.
It’s hard to trust the Signal team when they continually disappoint in such egregious ways.
Signal is great for communicating with people you don’t mind sharing your identity with. Would love to see signal implement usernames. I’m really into simpleX chat these days —really cool project.
SimpleX looks interesting, thanks for sharing!
The iOS notification implementation isn’t super reliable yet but it works if you leave the app open
My favorite part is that you can easily self host your own server with a docker container
You can also use their CLI app to send yourself all sorts of notifications from all your selfhosted services. The only really irritating thing is that they won’t provide an arm binary, and compiling the app on arm is… decidedly not easy.
Tried to switch to signal. But it’s useless without everyone i know switching over from Whatsapp. Which is like merged with our country at this point.
I just wasn’t budging. Refused to use WhatsApp and texted people instead. Slowly a lot of my friends switched and realised signal is better in every way. Even my parents find it the best as it is the easiest for them to use.
Yeah not going to happen for me unfortunately
Yeah not going to happen for me unfortunately
Yeah not going to happen for me unfortunately
It’s not really that tall of an ask to install one more app - especially one that asks for nothing, you’re not taking away anything, you’re adding.
People are weird.
I don’t know. People can’t keep up with everything (like tech privacy news) in life and now out of their 100+ contacts this one person wants them to switch to this different app that nobody else seems to be using.
From their perspective it’s kinda pointless
Welcome to life after 40 - I’ve been an early adopter all my life, but my network hasn’t moved with me.
As a result joining Snapchat has no value for me.
So I tend to use apps that are friend-agnostic like this and TIkTok.
Side note: my fave messaging app is Confide, it only reveals redacted words as you run your finger over them, and then deletes. So it’s impossible to screenshot.
It sounds like you’d still be able to take a video of it, then do a little bit of filtering and you’d have an image of the whole message. It’d take slightly more effort, but it’s not “impossible to screenshot.”
I’m not sure actually. I just tried to screen record and it wouldn’t let me. Then I tried to take a screenshot and it triggered a no screenshots pop-up
You can do with another device (i.e. filming the screen). It is of course less convenient, but that’s it.
Yeah I really wanted to switch to Signal from Whatsapp but people don’t want to try new messaging apps. Nowadays I use telegram but it’s just bots and 2 or 3 friends.
I got rid of Signal after they added cryptocurrency to their app.
While I have no issues with cryptocurrency itself, it was a reminder that they have full control over the app. Now I happily use XMPP and Matrix for communication with friends and family.
they have full control over the app
Yup, this is also my problem with Signal; you’re stuck with whatever boneheaded decisions the devs make and there’s nothing you can do about it. Personally, my pet peeve is their refusal to add any kind of data export. As someone who likes backing up chat history, this is a dealbreaker for me.
Indeed. I opened the Signal app after a really long time last week and found that they had added a useless Stories feature like WhatsApp. I uninstalled the app since I never used it anyways.
Edit: Looks like Signal stories can be turned off unlike WhatsApp stories. That’s a win I guess.
Exactly. I sometimes switch my SIM card between two different phones; Signal makes that process super confusing and awful because your Signal account, on a phone, doesn’t just behave like an account, it has hooks built into your phone and messaging apps. Telegram, on the other hand, lets me set a password and use 2FA via email and then just… log in. Honestly it seems so much simpler I can’t understand what the Signal devs are up to!
Is this on iPhone? I have regular backups enabled on my android
They’ve had data export for a long time, I helped make exports in support of a lawsuit more than 3 years ago.
Random question as Im very interested in using XMPP: Are public homeservers fine as long as you enable encryptions? And is there a list of recommended homeservers?
Im aware you can self host, that just is not an option for me currently
You’re more than welcome to register an account on canchat.org (my server).
And yes, as long as you enable OMEMO encryption, your server provider cannot read your encrypted messages.
https://providers.xmpp.net/ is a good resource for finding a provider (homeserver) as well.
That website is awesome! Exactly what I was looking for, thank you!
If you have android, Molly is great 3rd party client.
I’ve tried it, it’s definitely better. If I absolutely had to use Signal I’d use it through a Matrix bridge.
Your friends and family use matrix? Ok, I understand, that you can pressure your family to use it, but are all your friends that geeky?
Ah didn’t know about that. That is a dealbreaker. Too bad, it always looked promising but now it just looks like a scam app.
It’s certainly not a scam, and it is a reliable, private messaging app, don’t get me wrong. It’s just not decentralized/federated, and that’s the issue for me.
Are you fundamentally against crypto? Not all crypto are scams.
Not all crypto is currency, even. The coolest shit is just decentralized versions of things we have already.
I’m particularly interested in things like Arweave. Smart contracts are cool too, though, to be actually useful, governments need to embrace them.
Not all crypto is currency, even. The coolest shit is just decentralized versions of things we have already.
Since we’re all using Lemmy, an open source, decentralized, self hostable platform, wouldn’t suggesting Matrix make much more sense?
I host a Matrix and Lemmy server. Even if Signal is completely trustworthy now, will it always be? It isn’t my server and it’s a single point of attack for anybody (including governments) to insert (or demand) a backdoor.
I still try to understand Matrix.
I feel like there is a joke somewhere in here 😂
No pun intended. I tried a couple of times but I can’t figured it out.
No pun intended. I tried a couple of times but I can’t figured it out.
No pun intended. I tried a couple of times but I can’t figured it out.
No pun intended. I tried a couple of times but I can’t figured it out.
I feel like there is a joke somewhere in here 😂
FTFY:
Since we’re all using Lemmy, an open source, decentralized, self hostable platform, wouldn’t suggesting XMPP make much more sense?
Why xmpp over matrix? Seems generally like older tech that doesn’t have modern chat features.
What unique features does Matrix have? All it brings to the table is segmentation in the FOSS communuty. Also its developers’ background is sketchy as hell.
Googling a little, I might be misremembering limitations from a long time ago or from older IRC versions or something. Does it have async multi user rooms, reactions, and is it federated so I can stick to one log in? Not trying to be adversarial at all, these are just what I would miss if I didn’t use matrix and I haven’t really looked at xmpp since AIM days lol.
Reactions are a work in progress and one major client (Conversations) does not have them yet, the others do. It has been federated since early 2000s and had multi user rooms with history for at least the last decade that i’ve been using it.
Try it out one day, even if you continue to use Matrix day to day.
It is kinda slow, the clients it has are bad and also this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32780665#:~:text=based on…-,If%20you’re%20privacy%20focused%2C%20do%20not%20use%20matrix%E2%80%A6,metadata%20it%20leaks%20is%20astonishing.&text=The%20metadata%20that%20Matrix%20%E2%80%9Cleaks,email%2C%20or%20OMEMO%20encrypted%20XMPP.
It may not be perfect yet, but ill take the superior design approach (decentralized and self hostable) any day. The details can be improved over time. Matrix can improve its metadata handling, signal will never be decentralized and self hostable.
On top of that, if you get your friends and family on your instance like I have, the metadata isnt even a problem since everything is contained on my server anyway.
We’re using it and it’s fast and the Element client is great.
See how fast it is on a server with a lot of people and messages, it gets slower and slower over time
Signal is good but I just can’t make the people I text regularly to switch.
This is why it was so good that Signal supported SMS. It was much easier to get people to switch when they didn’t have to think back who was on Signal and who was not before starting a conversation. Now people just default to text because they know everyone has that, and they don’t have to waste time opening Signal, seeing yup, not on there before opening their SMS app, if they even bother.
I dropped signal when they dropped sms. I get why they did it but they removed their usefulness for most people. You could. Normally convince someone to use it foe sms and then start using the secure features with that person. Now without sms most people wont even consider it.
Well that’s more secure /s
This only ever worked on Android so while helpful, it wasn’t a panacea by any means as it didn’t actually reach most people. Last time I had some numbers, the downloads across the App Store and Play Store were very similar so it probably ever reached about half the users. That’s if we assume everyone on Android used it, which wasn’t the case. 🤷
I got my sister to install Signal so that we could more security send financial receipts back and forth, etc. But I have another friend that doesn’t want to install it because, “…it’s another app I have to deal with…”.
When people make this statement I never understand it. My mother also keeps saying that she does want to deal with anymore apps than she has. What exactly does she mean by that. The app updates are automatic and the app just exists on the menu when not used. It is not like the app needs maintenance/tweaking to run
People in the comments saying others in my network wont install so its pointless for me. All i want to say is Mate , dont be a sheep. I had 1000+ contacts and i installed signal then sent a message to everyone saying i am on signal and uninstalled whatsapp. Around 200 contacts moved to signal just because they value me Tl;DR know your worth
I stop talking to people who send me mass messages advertising apps because I actually do know my own worth.
Mate its 2023, you should know why signal is better than whatsapp and other data harvesting apps. Since you joined lemmy i think you support FOSS so why not support the apps that doesnt fuck you over.
I totally understand your point, but far from being a sheep, I live in a country where Whatsapp is the standard even for government, healthcare, college, private work. On the other hand showing people an app that only do better on privacy, which should be enough but it doesn’t, but has no other appeals/features is a war lost before it’s start. I’m happy many of you could do the switch. Best I could do, and I know I’ll get ranted for this, was get as many people as I could to telegram. Please be gentle.
I feel ya mate. Lets just hope whatsapp fucks up and goverments stop using it
You did see this coming, but I don’t understand why people associate Telegram with security in any way. It openly states that it’s not end to end encrypted and everything is visible to the server! And if you enable end to end encryption for a particular chat, its functionality is severely restricted.
I don’t associate telegram with security nor privacy, I know its flaws, I just choose to use it instead of anything meta related. I understand it’s bad company X versus bad company Y. But as I said a perfect messenger app that has no user base is useless. I really wish things like signal or, even better, sessions became the mainstream way to communicate.
Makes sense. I also use all kinds of messengers. But it just so happens that the people I communicate with the most also use Signal 😁
I don’t associate telegram with security nor privacy, I know its flaws, I just choose to use it instead of anything meta related. I understand it’s bad company X versus bad company Y. But as I said a perfect messenger app that has no user base is useless. I really wish things like signal or, even better, sessions became the mainstream way to communicate.
I don’t associate telegram with security nor privacy, I know its flaws, I just choose to use it instead of anything meta related. I understand it’s bad company X versus bad company Y. But as I said a perfect messenger app that has no user base is useless. I really wish things like signal or, even better, sessions became the mainstream way to communicate.
Maybe I’m just stubborn, but if someone really wants to talk to me, they should respect my sense of privacy. If not, I’m just not taking to them - read: I’m not translate
