You want the one and only environmental problem in our food industry, that is it.
I’m genuinely sorry if that’s the takeaway from my message, as that was not my intent. That was, actually, the vibe I’ve gotten from you; that the primary issue in food production is locality. I think there are dozens and dozens of issues in our global food supply chain, and maybe a third of them are tied to meat production.
But I don’t think all of humanity must give up meat or anything. My main opinion is that meat is over-represented in our diets, especially American diets, and that huge demand for meat has economically incentivized meat production in areas and ways that aren’t sustainable. But I do think meat can be sustainable. The primary issue isn’t meat existing, its meat being over produced.
Much of what you say in your reply is correct, at least in part, so your not wrong that meat could be produced more sustainably. But, also as you say, it mostly isn’t. So, I choose to not eat meat. But I’m not asking you to not, but rather saying that your proposal, of eating exclusively local, isn’t practical for 90% of humans.
But yeah, you’re right, “it’s a sad fact that many states export so much local food, meat, only to import crops from the other side of the country.” That’s 100% correct, and a problem.
But your soy point isn’t really correct. https://ourworldindata.org/soy. While yes, most of animal feeds is soy meal, a byproduct of soy oil production, if you compare the amount of soybean directly consumed by us, its slightly less that then 7% whole soybeans fed directly to animals. So, animals are eating more straight whole soybeans than humans are eating tofu, tempeh, soymilk, etc.
And, on top of that, Soy meal is human edible. Yes, it often does require further refining, but it already is used to make things like Textured Vegetable Protein and Soymilk, since neither need the oil. And, we lose somewhere between 2-5x the energy using that soymeal to feed chickens, and somewhere between 6-25x that energy feeding it to cows.
And to reiterate, I’m not saying to burn down all animal agriculture and make everyone everywhere vegan. I’m saying that I agree with a lot of what you say, about reworking global logistics and agriculture to make all farming more local and more sustainable. And, as a consequence of that, meat production will have to drop. Factory farming is horrible on so many fronts, but it is efficient at pumping out loads of meat. Small scale operations are less efficient in terms of total meat production. To dismantle that, like you’re proposing, will result in lower global meat production, even if some localities might actually see a rise. Small scale operations are less efficient in terms of total meat production, even if they’re more efficient by most other metrics (all those pesky ‘market externalities’).
No, that’s not the takeaway I got from your message. It’s the takeaway I get from a lifetime of growing up close to the source of my food. In an honest analysis, evidence after evidence shows the primary issue with food production is DEFINITELY locality. I have no problem living a carbon neutral life eating locally and balanced. And there’s plenty of farmable land around me being underutilized, not utilized, or exported. And I don’t live in a “megafarm state”.
As for meat being “overrepresented”, I agree with you with dozens of caveats. The problem is that meat is generally quite healthy so long as it’s not heavily processed, and while there may be an environmental impact to meat overrepresentation, there is less of a health one (possibly more of a health gain). How much it’s overrepresented is an especially hard problem because part of its overrepresentation comes from its sourcing. The well-balanced diet (health and ecologically) involves at least 2 meat/fish meals per day in my area, possibly 3 if you include dairy and eggs. In some other areas, that ecologically balanced diet might only be 1 meal of meat a day or less (though there may be no local way to find a nutritional balance in those areas).
But your soy point isn’t really correct
I think I’ll agree to disagree here. Nothing you said in your rebuttal really disputed my point effectively, and I don’t think you recognize that effectively enough for us to discuss it. Something I’d like to point out - soy flour really isn’t that healthy and there’s no reason to believe soy meal would be consumed by humans in larger amounts if it weren’t consumed by animals.
And to reiterate, I’m not saying to burn down all animal agriculture and make everyone everywhere vegan
I know that. I probably wouldn’t have replied to you (at least not as well-cited) if you were. Hardcore vegans that want everyone cutting out meat are brainwashed, and the only time I’ve seen them deconverted (rarely) was when they faced health issues due to also not actually spending the time and effort on nutrition required to attempt to sustain such a lifestyle.
I’m genuinely sorry if that’s the takeaway from my message, as that was not my intent. That was, actually, the vibe I’ve gotten from you; that the primary issue in food production is locality. I think there are dozens and dozens of issues in our global food supply chain, and maybe a third of them are tied to meat production.
But I don’t think all of humanity must give up meat or anything. My main opinion is that meat is over-represented in our diets, especially American diets, and that huge demand for meat has economically incentivized meat production in areas and ways that aren’t sustainable. But I do think meat can be sustainable. The primary issue isn’t meat existing, its meat being over produced.
Much of what you say in your reply is correct, at least in part, so your not wrong that meat could be produced more sustainably. But, also as you say, it mostly isn’t. So, I choose to not eat meat. But I’m not asking you to not, but rather saying that your proposal, of eating exclusively local, isn’t practical for 90% of humans.
But yeah, you’re right, “it’s a sad fact that many states export so much local food, meat, only to import crops from the other side of the country.” That’s 100% correct, and a problem.
But your soy point isn’t really correct. https://ourworldindata.org/soy. While yes, most of animal feeds is soy meal, a byproduct of soy oil production, if you compare the amount of soybean directly consumed by us, its slightly less that then 7% whole soybeans fed directly to animals. So, animals are eating more straight whole soybeans than humans are eating tofu, tempeh, soymilk, etc.
And, on top of that, Soy meal is human edible. Yes, it often does require further refining, but it already is used to make things like Textured Vegetable Protein and Soymilk, since neither need the oil. And, we lose somewhere between 2-5x the energy using that soymeal to feed chickens, and somewhere between 6-25x that energy feeding it to cows.
And to reiterate, I’m not saying to burn down all animal agriculture and make everyone everywhere vegan. I’m saying that I agree with a lot of what you say, about reworking global logistics and agriculture to make all farming more local and more sustainable. And, as a consequence of that, meat production will have to drop. Factory farming is horrible on so many fronts, but it is efficient at pumping out loads of meat. Small scale operations are less efficient in terms of total meat production. To dismantle that, like you’re proposing, will result in lower global meat production, even if some localities might actually see a rise. Small scale operations are less efficient in terms of total meat production, even if they’re more efficient by most other metrics (all those pesky ‘market externalities’).
No, that’s not the takeaway I got from your message. It’s the takeaway I get from a lifetime of growing up close to the source of my food. In an honest analysis, evidence after evidence shows the primary issue with food production is DEFINITELY locality. I have no problem living a carbon neutral life eating locally and balanced. And there’s plenty of farmable land around me being underutilized, not utilized, or exported. And I don’t live in a “megafarm state”.
As for meat being “overrepresented”, I agree with you with dozens of caveats. The problem is that meat is generally quite healthy so long as it’s not heavily processed, and while there may be an environmental impact to meat overrepresentation, there is less of a health one (possibly more of a health gain). How much it’s overrepresented is an especially hard problem because part of its overrepresentation comes from its sourcing. The well-balanced diet (health and ecologically) involves at least 2 meat/fish meals per day in my area, possibly 3 if you include dairy and eggs. In some other areas, that ecologically balanced diet might only be 1 meal of meat a day or less (though there may be no local way to find a nutritional balance in those areas).
I think I’ll agree to disagree here. Nothing you said in your rebuttal really disputed my point effectively, and I don’t think you recognize that effectively enough for us to discuss it. Something I’d like to point out - soy flour really isn’t that healthy and there’s no reason to believe soy meal would be consumed by humans in larger amounts if it weren’t consumed by animals.
I know that. I probably wouldn’t have replied to you (at least not as well-cited) if you were. Hardcore vegans that want everyone cutting out meat are brainwashed, and the only time I’ve seen them deconverted (rarely) was when they faced health issues due to also not actually spending the time and effort on nutrition required to attempt to sustain such a lifestyle.