The problem that we have is that we don’t choose. If we had a free choice to vote for what we wanted, then nobody would need to tie themselves into knots justifying their support for genocide.
If the choice is between Hitler and Hitler+, you better believe that I’m not voting for Hitler, I’m going to be doing everything I can to dismantle the system that forced that choice on everyone. Because that system isn’t democracy.
Everybody knows this. We’re just asking people to make the best choice given the circumstance. A protest vote against Harris isn’t going to teach them anything, a loss isn’t going to teach them anything. We’ll be left with a situation worse than we are in now.
Except, you’re implying that’s not what you’re doing. You want to believe that your vote can accomplish everything you want, as easily snapping your fingers, but that’s not how it works. No positive change in history has happened in a day, but you seem to want to vote as if positive change can happen immediately.
Well, we demanded to do other things than voting to push the Dems to end their support for genocide. And got heavily attacked for it, daring to dirty the nest. We got insulted as being Trump supporters in disguise.
The idea that a serious threat to Dems voting turnout if they continue genocide would force them to change their stance before the election, was immediately met with hostility and gaslighting at worst and “lets wait until after the election” at best. Well waiting until after the election didnt work the past 25 or so years. Not with Clinton, Obama, Clinton or Biden.
We’re not talking about a threat to Democrats, we’re talking about a threat to democracy. Go back in history, and look at Germany between the mid 1920s to the 1940s. Puritanical votes in the face of authoritarianism didn’t empower people to combat genocide, it decimated their ability to do something about it. RFK, Jr., the environmental advocate was so firm in his beliefs that he went groveling to the guy that pulled us out of the Paris Climate Accords, doesn’t believe in Climate Change, and just generally doesn’t give a shit about anyone or anything unless it benefits him. RFK Jr. wasn’t a serious candidate. Stein? The woman shows up every four years, and didn’t even know how many members of Congress there are — and she’s the one that should be trusted to know the policy and diplomatic complexities to bring peace to an ideological, geo-political battle spanning millennia? Are those the “other things” you demanded? In order to accomplish things in the real world, it takes consensus and working together in order to achieve results without dictatorial power. A vote for Harris isn’t a vote for genocide or a perfect world, it’s a vote for moving forward — or if you want to be super cynical about it, a choice for one of the two candidates that can win who is the least likely candidate to exacerbate tensions and cause the spilling of more innocent blood.
If you can’t understand that, then it just means I can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. There isn’t a third option out there that is coming to save us — it’s up to us to save us, even if we have to do it piece-by-piece because there is no magic snapping of the fingers that is going to fix this.
Why was the choice set since like a year already? And we met the same hostility and “reasons” 9 months ago. Truth is not enough people care enough to push for change. They just wanted to feel that their lot is not threatened, solidarity be damned. Well this does not work, as history has infamously shown time and time again. Unless people band together they’ll be picked off one by one.
The only time I saw resistance was when people were pitching about Joe or harris without saying, hey vote for candidate x y or z in the primary they are better than Joe or Harris.
If all you do is say so, and so is ship I’m not voting for them, then your just being a nuisance.
And when the context is Trump or Harris being elected, saying “I’m not voting for Harris” means by default you are supporting Trump.
And when the context is Trump or Harris being elected, saying “I’m not voting for Harris” means by default you are supporting Trump.
So if i am saying “I’m not voting for Trump” then what happens? By this logic even if i vote the same third party candidate or not at all, i would be supporting Harris.
The only way this “default” works is if people are expected to vote Democrats. And if that is the default expectation it means they can do whatever they want, with no accountability. Instead of politicians having to win your vote with good politics, the blame gets shifted to the voter for not being loyal to the party. That is gaslighting. And when having these discussions it seems a lot of people were gaslit quite successfully by the party elites.
The problem that we have is that we don’t choose. If we had a free choice to vote for what we wanted, then nobody would need to tie themselves into knots justifying their support for genocide.
If the choice is between Hitler and Hitler+, you better believe that I’m not voting for Hitler, I’m going to be doing everything I can to dismantle the system that forced that choice on everyone. Because that system isn’t democracy.
I don’t remember Hitler lite defending sexual assault victims.
By your logic, you’re more genocidal because at least she’s publicly asking for a ceasefire.
Good luck dismantling the system with Hitler+ in power. You’d have an easier time dismantling it while ‘regular’ Hitler is in power.
Hey look, a reason to vote.
Am I allowed to call someone a fascist on here if they say, “Vote for Hitler?”
Everybody knows this. We’re just asking people to make the best choice given the circumstance. A protest vote against Harris isn’t going to teach them anything, a loss isn’t going to teach them anything. We’ll be left with a situation worse than we are in now.
They just can’t get this. Even Ross Perot, who had 18% of the vote- far better than any third party candidate since- didn’t change things.
He didn’t, Nader didn’t, Jill Stein didn’t, none of the others did either.
But this time… THIS TIME IT WILL BE DIFFERENT!
Nader and Stein certainly changed things. They made them worse.
Ross Perot also changed things, but arguably for the better.
All by fucking with the election and getting the person on the opposite side of the aisle elected.
Because that’s how the spoiler effect works.
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Well what exactly are you doing to dismantle the system? Posting on Lemmy? How’s that working out? Not great?
Now get off your lazy, entitled, privileged ass and vote against Hitler+.
I’m an activist, union rep and collaborate with several co-operatives.
What about you?
So you’re someone who pays attention… Then why don’t you seem to understand how the system works?
We’re one week from the election and we have two choices. Harris and Trump.
Trump is anti-union, anti-democracy, and pro-genocide.
Harris is pro-union, pro-democracy, and anti-genocide (but currently constrained by the law).
That’s the two choices. No other choice is valid because the winner will be one of the two.
Vote third party and you have a Jill Stein or Ralph Nader situation where Trump wins.
Don’t vote? Well, that too leads to Trump.
Except, you’re implying that’s not what you’re doing. You want to believe that your vote can accomplish everything you want, as easily snapping your fingers, but that’s not how it works. No positive change in history has happened in a day, but you seem to want to vote as if positive change can happen immediately.
Well, we demanded to do other things than voting to push the Dems to end their support for genocide. And got heavily attacked for it, daring to dirty the nest. We got insulted as being Trump supporters in disguise.
The idea that a serious threat to Dems voting turnout if they continue genocide would force them to change their stance before the election, was immediately met with hostility and gaslighting at worst and “lets wait until after the election” at best. Well waiting until after the election didnt work the past 25 or so years. Not with Clinton, Obama, Clinton or Biden.
We’re not talking about a threat to Democrats, we’re talking about a threat to democracy. Go back in history, and look at Germany between the mid 1920s to the 1940s. Puritanical votes in the face of authoritarianism didn’t empower people to combat genocide, it decimated their ability to do something about it. RFK, Jr., the environmental advocate was so firm in his beliefs that he went groveling to the guy that pulled us out of the Paris Climate Accords, doesn’t believe in Climate Change, and just generally doesn’t give a shit about anyone or anything unless it benefits him. RFK Jr. wasn’t a serious candidate. Stein? The woman shows up every four years, and didn’t even know how many members of Congress there are — and she’s the one that should be trusted to know the policy and diplomatic complexities to bring peace to an ideological, geo-political battle spanning millennia? Are those the “other things” you demanded? In order to accomplish things in the real world, it takes consensus and working together in order to achieve results without dictatorial power. A vote for Harris isn’t a vote for genocide or a perfect world, it’s a vote for moving forward — or if you want to be super cynical about it, a choice for one of the two candidates that can win who is the least likely candidate to exacerbate tensions and cause the spilling of more innocent blood.
If you can’t understand that, then it just means I can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. There isn’t a third option out there that is coming to save us — it’s up to us to save us, even if we have to do it piece-by-piece because there is no magic snapping of the fingers that is going to fix this.
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Well you should do that pissing match during the candidate selection then. Don’t drag it out to after the choices are set.
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Why was the choice set since like a year already? And we met the same hostility and “reasons” 9 months ago. Truth is not enough people care enough to push for change. They just wanted to feel that their lot is not threatened, solidarity be damned. Well this does not work, as history has infamously shown time and time again. Unless people band together they’ll be picked off one by one.
The only time I saw resistance was when people were pitching about Joe or harris without saying, hey vote for candidate x y or z in the primary they are better than Joe or Harris.
If all you do is say so, and so is ship I’m not voting for them, then your just being a nuisance.
And when the context is Trump or Harris being elected, saying “I’m not voting for Harris” means by default you are supporting Trump.
So if i am saying “I’m not voting for Trump” then what happens? By this logic even if i vote the same third party candidate or not at all, i would be supporting Harris.
The only way this “default” works is if people are expected to vote Democrats. And if that is the default expectation it means they can do whatever they want, with no accountability. Instead of politicians having to win your vote with good politics, the blame gets shifted to the voter for not being loyal to the party. That is gaslighting. And when having these discussions it seems a lot of people were gaslit quite successfully by the party elites.