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This is such an insightful way to articulate the issue. The conversation mostly revolves around individuals (“men are bad”). This is one of the few times that men are talked about in a way that acknowledges the system at play, that they are a product of an environment and society that has shaped them a certain way.
I’ve lost the podcast source that talked about “there is no good way to be a man currently”. Even for someone who wants to be a better man, there aren’t role models or celebrations of " good manliness". There’s no positive road map, only a list of “don’ts” and stereotypes to avoid.
The best example of good manliness in media I can think of is Bandit from Bluey.
The options are pretty slim if a cartoon dog from a children’s show is humanity’s best example of being a good man.
Tim Walz seems to do it right.
And the speech professor
Idk, I think Aragorn is a great example. As is Samwise.
Uncle Iroh is another one
We, as a society, are still trapped within the “feminist revolution”, there’s fighting going on and no new normal emerged.
Both sides are ripped apart by two often contradicting sets of expectations, the traditional role and the progressive role.
What makes it so hard for a lot of men is, that it’s a willful surrender of privileges. Men lost a ton of privileges over the last decades and it takes a bit of reflection to understand that these privileges were never legitimate in the first place. Instead, they frame women’s rights as weakness, because it directly contradicts their narrative of a strong man.
And that also reflects on women, to put it extremely bluntly, he’s expected to pay for dinner, but she still wants equal pay. It will take decades to sort all of that out.
It sucks. As a dude, I feel it’s almost impossible to balance being confident and approaching women you don’t know and also not being a creep or bothering them. I’m not the best but not the worst when it comes to looks, I have many friends of different genders (shoutout to my enby fellows who have to deal with this mess and also discrimination) and I’m confident in most things I do aside from dating. It’s gotten to the point I just won’t ask women out due to anxiety over coming across as a creep or bothering them, and instead endure loneliness. Which is not great, but it is what it is.
I like it
What makes it so hard for a lot of men is, that it’s a willful surrender of privileges. Men lost a ton of privileges over the last decades and it takes a bit of reflection to understand that these privileges were never legitimate in the first place. Instead, they frame women’s rights as weakness, because it directly contradicts their narrative of a strong man.
the important distinction here is that these privileges were the reason that men did what they did. Without them now men don’t really have an overall driving force through life. Without the expectation of “being a strong man” they literally have nothing to live for in society.
Being a good human being is an option for everyone.
And I know this is from a kids cartoon, but Uncle Iroh from Airbender embodies benevolent masculinity pretty well. If we want children and young men to be socialized better, a good place to start is with our media depicting more characters like that.
Even for someone who wants to be a better man, there aren’t role models or celebrations of " good manliness". There’s no positive road map, only a list of “don’ts” and stereotypes to avoid.
Bluey.
This is hilarious because Bluey is a girl
I meant the father from Bluey. What’s his name? Bandit?
Yeah, it’s Bandit. It’s one of those series that you can watch as an adult. It’s great. If they ever stop making it, I’m going to riot.
At least that means the routes men take will be more unique
Or they’ll all fall down the Andrew “Sex Trafficker” Tate pipeline instead.
He’s not special. Run of the mill pimp.
I didn’t say he was special, just that his type has an outsized influence on young men.
That’s correct. Please accept my apology if it seemed I was suggesting otherwise.
All good, I did misinterprete what you were trying to add :)
there aren’t role models
What would you expect from a “role model”? Just a person who does good for its own sake? Doing so would be something that’s not publicized, so it’s hard to show off good behaviour.
Robin Williams was always a standup guy, Keanu Reeves seems like a nice guy, Ryan Reynolds seems to be a standup guy (but he has a hard monetary incentive to keep this image), the guys from Cinema Therapy seem to be decent. Do these people count as role models?
I’m not gonna be the “not all men” guy because this person does have a point,
But I will say, if all you look for is negatives, that’s all you’re gonna find.
Not being desirable can also solely be a lack of positives.
Ah yes, you look at the entirety of the male population, say “there’s no positives”, and still think you have a point 😂😂😂.
It’s like you can’t even wrap your own head around the sheer amount of misandry oozing from your mouth.
That wasn’t my point. Good job failing at reading comprehension.
As a bisexual guy, this is exactly why I mostly dated women.
Hey! Bi cis male here, the few men I seem to go on dates with always seem to have some hangup. I’m not gay enough, I’m married to a women, hates vegans, hates trans people. It’s really exhausting to the point that first dates feel like I’m interviewing them.
It’s really exhausting to the point that first dates feel like I’m interviewing them.
If it’s a first date, you are interviewing them. I’m sorry it feels exhausting for you though.
I get what you mean but it shouldn’t feel like that. I shouldn’t be searching for something they might hate me over.
Yeah, when I met my wife the first time it was the opposite of exhausting. I felt like I could keep talking all night.
Dude same. It was really easy to date before 2016. First date with my wife we kept talking until the bar closed.
Now you have to look into your meeting spot make sure nothing problematic happened there. I was lucky that my enbyfriend friend was in the music scene when I was because I already knew a lot about them before our relationship started.
Now if someone is interested in me. I’m always skeptical. I recently got asked to help this straight lady cheat on her husband because she wanted to create strife for a divorce. Like who TF what’s to be involved with that stress?
I agree, it shouldn’t feel like that. As someone who is bi and queer though, on top of all the normal trials and tribulations of dating there’s also a long list of people who don’t think I have the right to exist. I’d rather find out they’re a hate filled asshole as soon as possible so I can move on with my life. At this stage I won’t meet someone face to face unless we’ve chatted extensively online already. Even though I’m dooming hard I do still hope you find someone 😊
As a straight man I could say similar things about most of the women I’ve dated. It’s not a men problem or a women problem, it’s just how dating is. Nobody’s perfect and it’s hard to find someone that fits with you.
Men are hot, but I’m more pessimistic about finding a guy I’d want a relationship with than finding a girl. As a transfem, I’d have an easier time finding a guy, but a majority would probably be abusive or chasers. There might be fewer women, but it’d be safer(women are more likely to be progressive) and they’d be more into me as a person. It’d be harder to hookup, but easier to find a gf than bf.
Even transmascs would be better than cis dudes because they’re almost certainly not bigoted chasers that were raised to see women as goals instead of people.
My wife would agree I suspect. She’s transfem, and basically considered herself a lesbian until she met me.
As a bisexual guy, this is not at all my experience with non-straight men. They seem to be mostly cool and well socialized.
Wow! Sample size: 1. Sure showed them, buddy.
Clearly not bi, btw, you’re a misandrist. Congratulations 🎉!
I’ve never seen someone so pissed off and offended over not getting any bussy lmao
For several years I hated women because subconsciously I was angry that they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not. Now that I’ve matured I hate the system that keeps me oppressed. I think if “alpha males” stopped taking out their anger on women and instead on the capitalist class we would start seeing some true progress.
same but then I realized I am a woman
Congratulations on your transition 🙏
Same :3
For several years I hated women because subconsciously I was angry that they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not.
Wouldn’t the equivalent rather be women being allowed to express masculine traits? Which to be fair is well-accepted nowadays.
However, I don’t give a shit if people see some of my traits as feminine. I was born male and 100% identify as male. If others see my traits as feminine, it doesn’t change my identity because I define it. Think I shouldn’t wear long hair? Who asked for your opinion? And why should be awesome traits like empathy or openness be strictly female and not human?
Some masculine traits in women are accepted to some extent. But, look at the backlash against that Algerian boxer.
For someone who really cares about fitting in with society, the pressure to conform can be pretty brutal. There’s probably more freedom to be who you want to be now than ever before. In the past not only gender roles, but every role in society was extremely rigid. People didn’t even have the freedom to decide whether or not to wear a hat outside. The expectation was that everyone wore a hat, and if you didn’t you were a real oddball.
I strongly suspect that some of the people who think they’re trans are just people who have interests/passions/attitudes/personalities that don’t conform to their stereotypical gender roles.
they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not.
A man expressing masculinity? “That’s violently toxic!”
A man expressing femininity? “That’s disgustingly pathetic!”
Now that I’ve matured I hate the system that keeps me oppressed
Except… who reinforces those oppressive rules?
It ain’t men, that’s for sure. We just passively submit and nod our heads yes to whatever women say, least we are painted with the same brush by association, and be labelled misogynistic or “not a man” for disagreeing.
A man expressing masculinity? “That’s violently toxic!”
Okay, I have to imagine you’re here in bad faith because anyone who understands toxic masculinity would not phrase it this way.
Any individual who make blanket comments about whole sections of society will loose my respect pretty quickly.
Substitute women, blacks, Asians, Latinos, the Dutch, and just about every other subsection for the word “male” in that statement and this thread would be having a completely different conversation.
okay but we’re not talking about another subsection… we’re talking about men. you can insert whatever qualifier in front that makes you feel better about it, but you wouldn’t be making this comment if they were talking about another group. this is a problem among young men. we need to be able to talk about it if we want anything to change.
obviously if you insert a marginalized group in place of a dominant one it will be different. that is how that works, yes. this type of comment only derails from genuine concerns.
The irony being that those are their genuine concerns.
There’s nothing genuine about your rotten misandry. Take it, and yourself, out of here.
misandry? sure buddy, I really hold some deep hatred for men. or maybe the messaging men grow up on is toxic and ends up leading to women facing actual discrimination and violence. no such thing is happening in the other direction. women avoiding men for their own safety may hurt, but it’s not the same thing.
and why are we pretending that there’s some anti men agenda here? because a woman wasn’t careful enough with her phrasing, she didn’t say “some” men? everybody knows the numbers on inter gender violence. nobody is saying you are personally responsible. but anytime women express that men make them feel unsafe, every man in the room makes it about him. I love men, but I need to approach carefully to ensure they haven’t been Tatepilled before I get close. many women are just sticking with their girlfriends. why is this controversial?
it’s really frustrating to me honestly. I’m a trans woman. I’ve been on both sides of this conversation, and I’ve been on both sides of the equation. I’ve been a problematic man. I’ve been a healthy man. and now I’m not a man. I know how painful it is to constantly be perceived as a threat, and it hurt even more because I didn’t even want to be a man in the first place. but this argument comes up anytime a woman talks about her experiences and resulting outlook, and it’s just not productive because ultimately women are the ones in danger, while men are lonely and upset. not every man is a threat, but it’s enough of them that women need to be careful, and most of them got better at hiding their problems rather than actually going to therapy. women would love just as much as men to stop having these gendered associations and live and love freely. men need to hold each other accountable, we need to change the way we teach them, and importantly, they need to listen when women talk about these things instead of talking over them.
I mean…you’re not wrong, but it is a part of the conversation without context.
People tend to date a type. I’ve known plenty of girls who tend to date that type of man.
My SIL is like that and I hated every guy she introduced me to. The guy shes with now (and likely forever) was like that, but he’s definitely grown a lot during their relationship and now I think eh is a pretty cool guy. He’s still got some jagged edges but he’s not Dudebro McChismo anymore for sure.
For every Dudebro McChismo there’s plenty of Whitney Wineos and Sally Spadays and Jimmy Porchmonkeys. Stereotypes exist because there’s a sizeable chunk of a population that continues to live up to them.
I went to the same high school as one of the kids from Jersey Shore during the height of his fame. And we weren’t all Guido Paisono fucks like him, but we definitely had an outsized share.
Where did they say no good men exist?
It was implied (if not outright said, which I believe they did but whatever it’s a possibly made-up sister from a random person on the internet.)
Nope.
When you’re talking about demographics, you do not need to carve out exceptions for every single little outlier—it would be useless to talk about them otherwise.
It could just as easily be framed that women are raised and socialized to have unrealistic expectations for a partner.
I’ve seen guys who had no business even being in human society getting dates. Not sure “Women expect too much of men” is the issue here.
Both can be true at the same time, because, you know, there are a lot of very different people.
There’s no one size fits all.
Like, seven billion of them. Assuming half the world is below average of your expectation of things, that’s 3.5 billion people.
Women do most of the raising of children. Is it more likely that women raise their boys in a way they know will make them undesirable as an adult, or is it more likely that they push their daughters to do better and unintentionally raise their standards too high?
Standards of toxic masculinity are very often upheld by women as much as men. Growing up, one is told “Boys don’t cry” by mothers as well as fathers, and then mothers wonder why their husbands are emotionally closed off.
Society is broken. Less broken than it used to be, maybe, but still broken.
I once asked my male partner to wipe down the bathroom counter because my grandparents were coming over. He did a bad job. I got upset about it. He said my expectations were too high. He had left a dead bug on the counter.
We absolutely do not have too high of expectations.
He did a bad job.
Sounds like his parents did a bad job at raising him.
You should probably align with him on what “clean” means. It probably means “cleaner” to him, whereas you meant “nigh impeccable” - your definition isn’t bad; there’s just a mismatch between both your understanding.
….theres a dead bug on the counter and you call this nigh impeccable?
I’m never eating dinner at your house
No, I called her standard nigh impeccable, which should be the default. Having a dead bug is not “nigh impeccable”.
Which part of my previous comment caused the confusion? Because now I’m confused on why people misunderstand my comment.
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Hey, don’t blame us. YOU dated him.
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Don’t be abusive or sexist, damn that’s a high bar to cross.
I remember someone writing that the bar for men to be “good men” is in hell. That always stuck with me.
As unrealistic as ‘be better than a wild bear’.
It’s funny. I went to the zoo the other day and I didn’t see any women jumping into the bear enclosure.
Are we really so far down the “obligatory memetic envelope because apparently just stating opinions isn’t socially acceptable any more” slope that we’ve dropped past “can’t stop thinking about x lmao” and on to “i was talking to my sister and, get this, i said x”?
That was something I actually really liked about old Twitter: with only 140 characters (or whatever the original limit was), you really couldn’t add the extra fluff to soften your opinion. You just said what you meant as succinctly as possible and let the masses react as they will.
I’d like to think it forced more people to go “mask off” with their opinions and stop hiding behind fluff, but it also perpetuated an attitude of toxicity that made Twitter ripe for extremist exploitation
This is why I prefer queer people, they generally know how to be themselves and have emotions.
Accepting that one is queer often includes a significant deal of shedding at least some of the internalized constraining expectations of society in order to accept yourself, so queer folk have a ‘cleaner’ slate to resocialize themselves on, if you will.
As a general rule, obviously none of this is universal, and there are plenty of poorly socialized toxic queer folk out there. But I’m inclined to agree that they’re less likely to be toxic, in my experience as well.
As a gay guy, I call bullshit on that, unless you’re bi and have first-hand experience.
My experience is my queer circle. We have a nice online space where being yourself is normalized so there’s no pressure to act all manly or whatever.
There’s def something to be said by just how alien the cishet dynamic is to me for example.
I have no concerns regarding children, no concerns regarding gender or power, I’m in a transbian relationship with another trans woman, we don’t have to work very hard to be equal in terms of societal sex dynamics.
It’s not all like we’re super enlightened Buddhist monks or something, we fight and get pissed and get upset, but man, that kind of discomfort and disconnect and almost a quiet rage I feel that cishet men and women have towards each other because of the broader state of societal relations between the groups just isn’t something that plays into it for me.
I suppose while being queer is generally more a curse practically in most of the world, this sort of freedom is some reward for surviving through it.
So… ok, look… I know this comment may be nuked into oblivion, but I’m just a guy (closer to agender in terms of how I identify, but try explaining that to my fellow countrypeople… ) attracted to women, who’s had to deal with a Standard Eastern European male-focused upbringing and am now open and willing to undo that damage.
To get to my point, from the perspective I’ve detailed above, this is too vague to offer any clarity related to the specific problem and/or any ideal solutions.
In my opinion, while I do agree that keeping a finger pointed at the problem is a must in order to avoid it slipping from the list of things to solve moving forward, just pointing the finger and letting others figure it out is not. This is part of the very problem we’re trying to address, we all (yes, all, including myself) want people who identify as and own “man” as a part of their identity to grow and become healthier as members of this species, yet most material just says “men are toxic” and that’s it. There is no example offered, there is no list of things to be addressed, and, to be very honest, these feel like they’re coming from a place of hurt and not with an intent to teach, fix or help fix.
TRIGGER WARNING: the paragraph below contains a trauma joke, said joke exists solely to establish ownership of my trauma and neuter it of its power. I do not mean to offend anyone or minimise any traumatic experiences.
Personal anecdote, I could say the exact same thing as the OC about every one of my exes, all women, were I to allow myself to fall into the trap of resentment. Hell, I’m literally missing SA to get the Abuse Bingo.
The OC means nothing to me (no offence intended, I’m referring strictly to what message I can gleam from it), as I’m sure it would mean nothing to the many people I know who identify as men and are actively trying to redefine what that means for the benefit of themselves and those around them. At best, it reinforces the idea that “The Right tries to sell me misogyny and brain pills, The Left calls me an asshole,” at worst it actively pushes people away from the threshold of change, and, in my opinion, neither option is of any benefit. Why not offer some clarifying details alongside it? Or even learning material if you know of any?
Again, mean no offence to anyone, shit’s as confusing as can be to me and I’m honestly coming from a place of openness and willingness to do better. And, yeah, I know I’m essentially talking to a screenshot from Twitter, but, like… you get it.
All right, let me give it a shot…
Masculinity is good
Toxic masculinity is not good.
Toxic masculinity includes things like couching nice comments in mean comments. Saying things like toughen up instead of listening to feelings and concerns. Not doing a good job with personal hygiene because it’s “gay”. There is probably more, but it’s 7:00 a.m. and my brain is not thinking good.
Being a man means that you’re a human. And like all humans you have feelings. No, you did not use your willpower and/or big brain to remove feelings from your system. No one can do that. All you’ve done is removed the ability for you to detect your feelings. Others can see them clearly, because you have lost the ability to identify your own feelings and are not able to tell when you are having them. Hint: A lot of times feelings will transform themselves into anger if you don’t have a good understanding of what’s going on inside you. Even feelings like sadness, if not understood can come out as anger.
“I don’t know” is a valid response to a question.
Not everything you do has to be “rational” we are humans not computers.
Figure out, create, and enforce personal boundaries. Likewise respect the personal boundaries of others.
As a human being, you have intrinsic value. This is not tied to the work you do or the money you make. It is only tied to the fact that you exist. Because of this, you deserve to live and enjoy life implicitly.
Assuming you’re straight and you want sex with women. Sex is good. Straight women love sex with men just like straight men love sex with women. There is an unfortunate history between men and women where men are the aggressors, and have caused lots of pain, suffering, and death. This does not mean you are bad. It does mean though that you need to deal with the consequences of that history. Understand that going on a first date from a woman’s perspective is very scary. So don’t do anything that would cause concern. Be considerate. Give the woman an out. Keep your sketchy jokes to yourself for a couple of dates.
When dating, remember and enforce your boundaries and respect their boundaries. Women, like men, are not intrinsically good at relationships.
Pro dating tip from me to you: I have found sometimes that women just want to have someone listen to the problem they’re having and sympathize. They’ll do this even though they already know the solution. My instinct has been to try to suggest solutions. This does not go well. Just listen to their problem, resist the urge to suggest the obvious solution, and say something like " Wow, that sounds hard!"
I understand what I’m asking is very hard to do, but remember 99.999% of my advice also applies to all humans, not just men. It’s just as men, you’ve been kept out of the loop by culture. It’s not your fault. Feelings and boundaries are hard for everyone. It’s like learning how to ride a bike at 30 years old. Most everyone already knows how to do it. And now you’re at the age where it’s hard to learn.
Don’t forget you have intrinsic value. Love yourself!
I like this comment a lot.
Regarding the part about feelings, what should we be doing when we understand our feelings? Like, I understand that I’m sad or nervous about a new situation or whatever but I can’t function as well when I’m sad or anxious. When it changes to anger I can still do the things I need to do. I’m probably not pleasant to be around but I’m not pleasant to be around when I’m emotional in other ways either so it kind of evens out because at least I can work. If I can take the time to just be sad I do but I prefer to be alone with it so usually it comes out when I’m driving or other situations where I know I’ll have privacy. My friends would support me and I have supported them in the past but it’s just something I prefer to deal with alone. The few times I’ve let it out in front of a girlfriend though have been the beginning of the end of the relationship. It’s like they immediately lost their attraction to me when they saw me cry.
Good questions!
So in an ideal world, if you have a feeling. You should be able to say something like “I am having emotions and I need some time alone to deal with it.” and then leave the area to find a safe space.
Unfortunately, we are rarely living in the ideal world. The next best thing to do is to communicate that you are having feelings and might do some wacky stuff. Only do this if you feel safe to do so.
If you don’t feel safe to communicate or go find a safe space, then yeah, your kinda stuck to power though it. If you find this happens often you have to weigh weather or not it is worth changing your situation. This is very hard to do and is a result of pervasive toxic masculinity and bad luck.
As for the situation with your x it could be a range of things from she was affected by toxic masculinity as well (the expectation that all men need to be emotionless) or at worst, she was using the fact that you didn’t feel like you could show emotions against you. So when you showed emotions, the gig was up. Either way it sucks, I am sorry you went though that.
My personal preference is to only date people who understand that all humans have emotions. You need to make your own calls in this regard. Again, unfortunately, we don’t live in an ideal world.
Part of the challenge of moving away from toxic masculinity is we have to be firm with our boundaries. This may get expensive, so you have to weigh out how much life suck you can deal with. Its not always clear what the right answer is.
Good luck!
The few times I’ve let it out in front of a girlfriend though have been the beginning of the end of the relationship. It’s like they immediately lost their attraction to me when they saw me cry.
I’m very sorry to hear that. It may be that they did not have the emotional and social maturity to process it well. Or, maybe your expression did not come across in the way that you thought.
Regarding the part about feelings, what should we be doing when we understand our feelings?
This is one that I can’t answer as an expert, both because I am not a mental health professional and because I struggle with my emotions a bit due to my ADHD and maladaptive coping mechanisms to deal with childhood trauma. But, therapy has helped significantly and I will always suggest it to anyone who is able to access it.
What I can offer, though, are some tools, theory, and suggestions that have been helpful for me so far:
Find a good Feelings/Emotion Wheel. So far, I like the ones patterned after the Junto Institute as it delves into the nuance of emotions that we experience.
How do you use it? Well, there are a lot of different approaches. What I find helpful is looking at it from time to time to “look at the map” and thinking about times when I have experienced intense emotions, using the Wheel to better draw out more precisely what I was feeling. This exercise generally also goes into exploring why I was feeling that way and contemplating what ways I could act in order to express the identified emotion in a manner that is both genuine and constructive (I am much more comfortable with logic than emotionality).
When it comes to interpersonal expression of one’s emotions, one can try the same thing with a bit of extra roleplaying. First, I might walk through how I was feeling and how I expressed it, then pretend that I am the person who I expressed it to and try to identify how I would feel in their place and why (every other person is another human being with their own hopes, dreams, desires, and emotions).
An extremely important thing to keep in mind when working through past experiences is to be kind to your past self and past people that you interacted with. Malice is not a very common thing to encounter, so try not to assume it.
The idea, overall, is that by going through exercises like those, one builds their comfort and familiarity with their own emotions and are better able to self-regulate and express themselves in a manner that will lead to more healthy outcomes.
Going back to the first bit of yours that I quoted, if you did indeed express yourself in a healthy and appropriate fashion, splitting ways may have, in fact, been the healthiest outcome for you. Being with a partner that does not value you for who you are (our emotions are part of ourselves), is not something that is psychologically healthy or conducive to a stable relationship.
Sincerely, thank you! This is more than I could’ve hoped for and, yes, it’s plenty clear wherein lay the problems.
Also reassuring, because the entire list just sounds like “be human and humane,” which… I mean, yeah!
In my opinion, while I do agree that keeping a finger pointed at the problem is a must in order to avoid it slipping from the list of things to solve moving forward, just pointing the finger and letting others figure it out is not. This is part of the very problem we’re trying to address, we all (yes, all, including myself) want people who identify as and own “man” as a part of their identity to grow and become healthier as members of this species, yet most material just says “men are toxic” and that’s it. There is no example offered, there is no list of things to be addressed, and, to be very honest, these feel like they’re coming from a place of hurt and not with an intent to teach, fix or help fix.
this big problem here is that we need a fundamental shift in child rearing and how we raise boys. There isn’t really a good example beyond that. Currently the best you can do is be a good mentor and role model for the boys and young men around you. Preferably without becoming a suspected child predator, which is the hard part.
it’s looking like we’re moving towards that, but we have very little direction and very little scientifically backed evidence for any of this, so we’re kinda just pushing into a marshy field and trying to find a coin someone dropped somewhere at this point.
That’s exactly why I’d add as many details as possible with posts such as this! Swing it from a “you’re an asshole,” to “you’re an asshole because:” and I’m sure this’ll resolve a lot of potential knee-jerk reactions in those who are targeted by and come into contact with said messages.
I agree that it’s up to us to redefine what healthy masculinity should be, there’s a lot of redefining to do in general… And the value of information cannot be overstated in these cases, because examples of how not to do it can be the perfect points with which to define to-dos!
this could help, but you could go even further. Instead of “you’re being an asshole” you could say “this is an asshole thing to do, you probably shouldn’t do this” or something like that which dissociates the person from it very aggressively.
I agree that it’s up to us to redefine what healthy masculinity should be, there’s a lot of redefining to do in general… And the value of information cannot be overstated in these cases, because examples of how not to do it can be the perfect points with which to define to-dos!
yeah. It’s going to be a big change socially.
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It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society
As a guy who had a hard time finding a video game loving girlfriend, I understand the sentiment.
I’d say the game was definitely rigged from the start, but perhaps not just in the way men are raised and socialised.
If you make a joke about the inadequacy of men, you’re a bold and insightful person. If you make a joke about the inadequacy of women, you’re a misogynistic pig.
Also, remember gents, you should be ok with automatically being considered a threat, because everyone knows men only think about one thing (this is technically true, normally it’s “how the feck do I pay my rent this month, I just spent all my money on <insert hobby keeping you sane here>”).
I’d agree that men are definitely not raised and socialised for that kind of system, but then again who wants to be?
women don’t want to view men as threats. yes, this problem cuts both ways. it ultimately still boils down to how men are socialized. what we see from women is just a response to that.
I think it boils down a lot further than just the socialisation of men. It boils down to how people see one another.
At the moment, the idea that men must be “defused” in some way, as if they might just “go off” is repugnantly offensive. It’s a line of thought that harks back to racist ideas of “uncultured savages” who could “regress” at any moment.
Similarly, the idea that everything is ok for women even now is bucolicly stupid. This is beyond simple socialisation to solve, and requires a solid bit of activisim.
The really sad thing is we all want the same thing - for people to care about us, and accept who we are. For people not to hurt us, and to feel like we’re part of the wider world about us beyond token consumption.
harks back to racist ideas of “uncultured savages”
Does it? Does it really?
A question for you to meditate on, as my position is quite clear.
It’s clear.
Out of curiosity, how did you feel about man vs bear?
If you make a joke about the inadequacy of men, you’re a bold and insightful person. If you make a joke about the inadequacy of women, you’re a misogynistic pig.
I agree to some degree, but there’s also the fact that the socialization of men is the more dire problem in our current society by a significant degree.
Also, remember gents, you should be ok with automatically being considered a threat, because everyone knows men only think about one thing
That’s not why women often consider men a threat.
Yes, and also not incentivized as adults to change, shitty toxic alpa-bs traits often lead to a better financial status, and what somehow even worse, to a better social status bcs we are meant to adore & respect such individuals.
(But also such dickishness isn’t a behaviour type exclusive to men or male biology imho, that fact that we currently associate (and even encourage/keep the cycle repeating) this with men is the result of fucked up social constructs of the past, a shitty legacy of a flawed race.)
Kinda unfair, plenty of chill men. If you keep running into undesirables, please reflect on yourself
Cool, we caught a live “not all men” over here!!
Not exactly, if you want me to blunt I am saying that if everywhere you go there are assholes, then the asshole is probably you. You being a woman is inconsequential
Friend, it’s not that this is a fact, it’s that you brought it into the conversation. It’s also genuinely not all men either, the problem is that every time a woman speaks up there’s a chorus of men ready to respond “Not All Men” instead of actually listening.
This criticism only really works when it’s a woman speaking of their personal experience with men, not when it’s someone making a generalisation about all men.
Nothing was brought into the conversation, it was an all men/ not all men thing from the beginning.
I am listening, I think it’s a case by case basis and generalizations just alienate people instead of making them empathetic or sympathetic.
I also know that people tend to downplay women’s concerns as part of misogynistic histories, so I am mindful of that too. I do my part to speak up against these kinds of patterns when I see them
Edit I am just giving my pov, I wish there was a way to know which approach is more helpful.
Edit 2 but yeah, I tend to generalize too, so I get the need to do it when something annoys you enough
Youre not wrong, I’m in a lot of trans circles and their type of thinking tends to be detrimental to trans men, or at least extremely isolating.
But hey anyone that tries to enforce a gender divide is gonna have to encourage division somehow
With a bonus “It’s clearly your fault as the woman”.
Damn. Self accountability is sexism now?
Every man is the son of a woman.
Yes and no. There are plenty of people raised by same sex adoptive parents
